1 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:09,100 welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast 2 00:00:30,950 --> 00:00:26,390 oh yes it's the skeptic Zone episode 3 00:00:32,810 --> 00:00:30,960 number 163 for the third or December not 4 00:00:34,430 --> 00:00:32,820 really the fourth of december in 5 00:00:38,620 --> 00:00:34,440 australia but you know these time zones 6 00:00:40,729 --> 00:00:38,630 for the third of december 2011 7 00:00:44,780 --> 00:00:40,739 richardsaunders here with you from a 8 00:00:47,869 --> 00:00:44,790 very nice sunny Sydney Australia blue 9 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:47,879 skies it's a gorgeous day can't wait to 10 00:00:53,630 --> 00:00:51,090 get out there but before I I get out 11 00:00:55,490 --> 00:00:53,640 there just wonderful Sydney whether I 12 00:00:59,260 --> 00:00:55,500 better fill you in about this week's 13 00:01:02,810 --> 00:00:59,270 skeptic zone it's a Maynard fished 14 00:01:05,180 --> 00:01:02,820 spectacular special bonanza this week on 15 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:05,190 the skeptic zone Maynard with more 16 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:07,170 really interesting interviews from the 17 00:01:11,540 --> 00:01:09,210 Australian skeptics National Convention 18 00:01:14,510 --> 00:01:11,550 held a couple of weeks ago right here in 19 00:01:17,420 --> 00:01:14,520 Sydney main I'd catches up with Barry 20 00:01:18,999 --> 00:01:17,430 Williams a very long time skeptic here 21 00:01:21,710 --> 00:01:19,009 in Australia one of the people who 22 00:01:23,660 --> 00:01:21,720 originally kicked off the skeptics was 23 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:23,670 originally involved he was the president 24 00:01:27,830 --> 00:01:25,290 of Australian skeptics for many years 25 00:01:30,980 --> 00:01:27,840 and then our chief executive officer and 26 00:01:33,260 --> 00:01:30,990 editor of the skeptic magazine retired 27 00:01:36,980 --> 00:01:33,270 now it's good to catch up with Barry 28 00:01:39,649 --> 00:01:36,990 Williams anytime after then Maynard 29 00:01:43,219 --> 00:01:39,659 heads down to darling harbour where we 30 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:43,229 had our skeptics dinner our convention 31 00:01:49,550 --> 00:01:46,890 dinner chat stew dr. rachey what she 32 00:01:52,670 --> 00:01:49,560 react to these days and her opinion on 33 00:01:55,070 --> 00:01:52,680 the TGA and some other things then 34 00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:55,080 Maynard's feature interview feature 35 00:01:59,899 --> 00:01:57,090 interview with one of Sydney's most 36 00:02:03,130 --> 00:01:59,909 respected plastic and reconstructive and 37 00:02:06,289 --> 00:02:03,140 cosmetic surgeons dr. Cheung Williams 38 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:06,299 what an interesting interview and one 39 00:02:12,140 --> 00:02:09,410 that anybody anybody considering 40 00:02:15,650 --> 00:02:12,150 cosmetic or reconstructive surgery 41 00:02:19,870 --> 00:02:15,660 really should hear the ins and outs as 42 00:02:24,170 --> 00:02:19,880 it were of this specialized form of 43 00:02:26,630 --> 00:02:24,180 medical care dr. John Williams coming up 44 00:02:29,660 --> 00:02:26,640 and after the break it's may not back 45 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:29,670 again this time at skeptics in the pub 46 00:02:32,850 --> 00:02:31,770 now he had skeptics in the pub here in 47 00:02:36,090 --> 00:02:32,860 Sydney 48 00:02:37,920 --> 00:02:36,100 start in the past week Maya I was the 49 00:02:42,270 --> 00:02:37,930 guest speaker and I spoke about power 50 00:02:44,100 --> 00:02:42,280 balance and being on TV while I was 51 00:02:45,420 --> 00:02:44,110 doing that or just after Maynard was 52 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:45,430 running around with his trusty 53 00:02:51,390 --> 00:02:47,970 microphone asking people in the audience 54 00:02:54,090 --> 00:02:51,400 what they thought of the TV show I was 55 00:02:57,150 --> 00:02:54,100 in that was the one and what they 56 00:02:58,830 --> 00:02:57,160 thought of my involvement that's 57 00:03:00,210 --> 00:02:58,840 interesting to hear I didn't know he was 58 00:03:02,910 --> 00:03:00,220 going to do that but I'd like to play 59 00:03:05,420 --> 00:03:02,920 those little clips for you if you saw 60 00:03:08,790 --> 00:03:05,430 the show I'm sure you have your own 61 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:08,800 opinions all about that now i must say 62 00:03:14,100 --> 00:03:11,730 thank you so much to everybody who 63 00:03:17,220 --> 00:03:14,110 jumped onto facebook and sent me 64 00:03:19,740 --> 00:03:17,230 birthday greetings for last Monday yes 65 00:03:22,890 --> 00:03:19,750 last Monday thank you everybody goodness 66 00:03:26,130 --> 00:03:22,900 me I read every greeting I promise you 67 00:03:28,380 --> 00:03:26,140 um I've just absolutely bowled over by 68 00:03:30,630 --> 00:03:28,390 the number of greetings I got for my 69 00:03:33,930 --> 00:03:30,640 birthday my facebook page went on 70 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:33,940 forever thank you so much and if you'd 71 00:03:38,940 --> 00:03:36,610 like to join in some really interesting 72 00:03:41,759 --> 00:03:38,950 discussions these days it seems to me 73 00:03:44,580 --> 00:03:41,769 going on on my facebook page I seem to 74 00:03:46,710 --> 00:03:44,590 be the center for skeptics and believers 75 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:46,720 to come along and put their point of 76 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:48,730 view and dare each other and do all 77 00:03:55,199 --> 00:03:51,130 sorts of things if you had four are the 78 00:04:00,270 --> 00:03:55,209 skeptics own website www skip the zone 79 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:00,280 TV scroll down the left-hand side you'll 80 00:04:08,910 --> 00:04:03,730 see Richard Saunders facebook click on 81 00:04:11,490 --> 00:04:08,920 that and become my friend why not if for 82 00:04:15,539 --> 00:04:11,500 nothing else then to join in in some of 83 00:04:18,719 --> 00:04:15,549 the well lack of better word debates 84 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:18,729 discussions with skeptics and believers 85 00:04:25,020 --> 00:04:23,650 in various magical things in fact we've 86 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:25,030 got a few people on there at the moment 87 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:28,690 we're trying to we're trying to convince 88 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:32,530 to apply for our $100,000 challenge here 89 00:04:38,060 --> 00:04:34,530 at australian skeptics and who knows 90 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:38,070 even the 1 million dollar James Randi 91 00:04:43,290 --> 00:04:41,770 challenge to now coming up at the end of 92 00:04:46,210 --> 00:04:43,300 the show more information about how you 93 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:46,220 can help out dear friend and report 94 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:49,970 reynard get to Las Vegas with some items 95 00:04:58,900 --> 00:04:55,490 up for auction on ebay but for now I'm 96 00:05:01,180 --> 00:04:58,910 going to run downstairs run into my 97 00:05:04,270 --> 00:05:01,190 fridge pick myself up open the fridge 98 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:04,280 and get that bottle of birthday 99 00:05:11,140 --> 00:05:08,210 champagne have a nice relaxing champagne 100 00:05:13,900 --> 00:05:11,150 there in fact i'll come back upstairs 101 00:05:29,780 --> 00:05:13,910 with my champagne and enjoy with you all 102 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:34,310 years may not spooky action at a 103 00:05:42,470 --> 00:05:40,310 well it's all happening here in the 104 00:05:44,060 --> 00:05:42,480 lunchroom but right now I'm with the Big 105 00:05:45,620 --> 00:05:44,070 Cheese of the Australian skeptical 106 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:45,630 movement Barry Williams how are you I'm 107 00:05:49,100 --> 00:05:47,490 very good thanks Marlon are you big 108 00:05:51,950 --> 00:05:49,110 cheesing it around to You Lord in your 109 00:05:53,930 --> 00:05:51,960 skeptically ever run the room I'm no 110 00:05:56,450 --> 00:05:53,940 longer big cheesing I retired a couple 111 00:05:58,250 --> 00:05:56,460 of years ago and i'm now sitting back 112 00:06:00,740 --> 00:05:58,260 and telling them where they're going 113 00:06:03,410 --> 00:06:00,750 wrong that's my main role now so you're 114 00:06:04,550 --> 00:06:03,420 Asian provocateur these dire yeah well 115 00:06:07,790 --> 00:06:04,560 they always have been you've always 116 00:06:11,300 --> 00:06:07,800 enjoyed a good stir I yes I always did 117 00:06:13,820 --> 00:06:11,310 and I like the old french word emeralds 118 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:13,830 Ruiz unfortunately no longer gray I'm 119 00:06:18,410 --> 00:06:15,810 here old white so we've done if that 120 00:06:20,030 --> 00:06:18,420 works emmalin's Blanc sounds silly 121 00:06:21,860 --> 00:06:20,040 doesn't now just for those listeners 122 00:06:23,870 --> 00:06:21,870 that don't know you illustrious career 123 00:06:26,630 --> 00:06:23,880 what year did you everything kickoff 124 00:06:29,180 --> 00:06:26,640 1980 was the first skeptics were set up 125 00:06:34,130 --> 00:06:29,190 and we started publishing the skeptic 126 00:06:37,580 --> 00:06:34,140 magazine 1981 and I was in from the 127 00:06:39,470 --> 00:06:37,590 beginning and around i'm editing the 128 00:06:44,510 --> 00:06:39,480 magazine as a temporary thing for 19 129 00:06:47,210 --> 00:06:44,520 years and in the end i thought i'm 130 00:06:49,370 --> 00:06:47,220 getting bloody old for this so I very 131 00:06:51,590 --> 00:06:49,380 tired and I'm delighted the way though 132 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:51,600 they're carrying it on us doing a great 133 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:53,610 job okay I spoke to you at a mystery 134 00:06:57,680 --> 00:06:56,010 that's when I first met you and at that 135 00:07:00,190 --> 00:06:57,690 stage you you I asked you what was 136 00:07:02,510 --> 00:07:00,200 interesting you in the world of Wu and 137 00:07:04,250 --> 00:07:02,520 misrepresentation of science what's on 138 00:07:06,140 --> 00:07:04,260 your what's it what's in your beard at 139 00:07:08,300 --> 00:07:06,150 the moment about science going wrong 140 00:07:10,010 --> 00:07:08,310 well people miss representing it well 141 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:10,020 I'm sure there's still lots but as I say 142 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:12,090 big retired allows you to actually read 143 00:07:15,530 --> 00:07:14,370 science fiction instead of science books 144 00:07:16,610 --> 00:07:15,540 I mean one of the great things about 145 00:07:18,650 --> 00:07:16,620 every time and I'm reading all the books 146 00:07:19,850 --> 00:07:18,660 always wanted to read but didn't have 147 00:07:22,940 --> 00:07:19,860 time to reach result reading all the 148 00:07:25,430 --> 00:07:22,950 things I had to read so well I think in 149 00:07:28,550 --> 00:07:25,440 the health net areas probably still lead 150 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:28,560 the most immediately dangerous thing the 151 00:07:32,810 --> 00:07:30,330 summit summit like quackery that's going 152 00:07:36,050 --> 00:07:32,820 on I've delighted to hear this morning 153 00:07:40,190 --> 00:07:36,060 that someone behind the census limb scam 154 00:07:42,170 --> 00:07:40,200 was arrested in Queensland really is 155 00:07:43,970 --> 00:07:42,180 because I was it a Victorian skeptic 156 00:07:45,110 --> 00:07:43,980 that was under that one wrong there are 157 00:07:48,590 --> 00:07:45,120 our number of them for around the 158 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:48,600 country yeah now now do you find now 159 00:07:52,460 --> 00:07:49,770 you're retired you're reading for 160 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:52,470 pleasure it's so much more fun like you 161 00:07:55,970 --> 00:07:54,570 said because all this stuff you had to 162 00:07:57,740 --> 00:07:55,980 read it was it there's always a time 163 00:07:59,180 --> 00:07:57,750 deadline that kind of thing and now you 164 00:08:00,860 --> 00:07:59,190 can just take all day to read one 165 00:08:03,470 --> 00:08:00,870 chapter or reread it if you want it oh 166 00:08:05,570 --> 00:08:03,480 yeah I'm reading lots of lots of fiction 167 00:08:07,130 --> 00:08:05,580 of stuff I mean I enjoyed reading now 168 00:08:10,790 --> 00:08:07,140 judging by your beard you strike me as 169 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:10,800 an as a mob fam indeed I enjoyed as 170 00:08:14,410 --> 00:08:12,930 Moustakas I enjoyed Asimov he was the 171 00:08:16,580 --> 00:08:14,420 one that really got me out of science 172 00:08:18,170 --> 00:08:16,590 because you know I studied at a bit at 173 00:08:20,450 --> 00:08:18,180 school but I'm never very interested not 174 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:20,460 really a hole deeper my collections of 175 00:08:25,250 --> 00:08:23,130 azeroth brief pieces about science of 176 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:25,260 Kamal sauce and thats what we've got me 177 00:08:29,690 --> 00:08:26,730 fascinated by the whole thing before I 178 00:08:32,630 --> 00:08:29,700 became a skeptic guys always a skeptic a 179 00:08:34,370 --> 00:08:32,640 smallest at me so since 1980 do you 180 00:08:37,070 --> 00:08:34,380 think things have got less skeptical oh 181 00:08:40,279 --> 00:08:37,080 they got more we wish well that's 182 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:40,289 actually the same thing it's a bit hard 183 00:08:45,700 --> 00:08:42,090 to say in some areas we've had a lot of 184 00:08:52,150 --> 00:08:45,710 success I mean I remember the famous 185 00:08:57,650 --> 00:08:54,910 alert a lot of media to the fact that if 186 00:09:00,650 --> 00:08:57,660 you keep giving none 187 00:09:03,770 --> 00:09:00,660 I'm thinking credit to a lot of Wu 188 00:09:06,290 --> 00:09:03,780 merchants you likely get bitten and that 189 00:09:09,110 --> 00:09:06,300 had some good effect that but there's 190 00:09:10,970 --> 00:09:09,120 still plenty of around i mean i think 191 00:09:14,150 --> 00:09:10,980 we're not getting any less skeptical 192 00:09:17,450 --> 00:09:14,160 almond we're becoming more tolerant of 193 00:09:19,370 --> 00:09:17,460 other sorts of crap and you don't have 194 00:09:20,570 --> 00:09:19,380 to watch television if you can bear now 195 00:09:22,490 --> 00:09:20,580 there's hardly anything worth watching 196 00:09:24,740 --> 00:09:22,500 anymore well that's why we do some 197 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:24,750 reading it looks been great talking you 198 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:26,730 again Barry my pleasure my nice to see 199 00:09:32,300 --> 00:09:30,810 you again well we're here on the high 200 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:32,310 seas on the front of the South stained 201 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:34,650 looking out over darling harbour and are 202 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:37,290 we got captain Ricci they're known as 203 00:09:41,030 --> 00:09:39,330 the Batman of skepticism and I'm the 204 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:41,040 king of the world I shouldn't say that 205 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:42,450 really should I but this is kind of 206 00:09:46,070 --> 00:09:44,370 weird me know because this boat appears 207 00:09:48,260 --> 00:09:46,080 to be leaning even though it's 208 00:09:49,850 --> 00:09:48,270 stationary and it's not moving but it 209 00:09:51,680 --> 00:09:49,860 does seem to be moving forward doesn't 210 00:09:53,690 --> 00:09:51,690 it actually what's your favorite pirate 211 00:09:56,300 --> 00:09:53,700 movie every skeptic love pirates movies 212 00:09:58,070 --> 00:09:56,310 are as the Caribbean get out really well 213 00:10:00,020 --> 00:09:58,080 i don't know i don't watch many pirate 214 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:00,030 movies I just like that Johnny Depp's 215 00:10:03,710 --> 00:10:02,370 quite camp in that film I love the 216 00:10:05,900 --> 00:10:03,720 Mythbusters episode where they looked at 217 00:10:07,910 --> 00:10:05,910 pirate myths where you could wearing a 218 00:10:09,620 --> 00:10:07,920 patch over your I helped you see in the 219 00:10:10,730 --> 00:10:09,630 dark downstairs in the ship although i 220 00:10:12,260 --> 00:10:10,740 don'ti it's called downstairs on the 221 00:10:14,150 --> 00:10:12,270 ship I don't seem to remember at any 222 00:10:16,790 --> 00:10:14,160 stage and Titanic yelling we better go 223 00:10:18,620 --> 00:10:16,800 downstairs I don't think it is either is 224 00:10:21,020 --> 00:10:18,630 that a euphemism downstairs in the ship 225 00:10:24,170 --> 00:10:21,030 I think it is look what we're just we're 226 00:10:25,700 --> 00:10:24,180 on the poop deck and I'm the best boy as 227 00:10:27,890 --> 00:10:25,710 I say actually I think I'm the cabin boy 228 00:10:31,070 --> 00:10:27,900 actually what is it it's not actually 229 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:31,080 caught a poop deck is it obviously been 230 00:10:34,250 --> 00:10:32,490 going to the wrong place right hey 231 00:10:35,750 --> 00:10:34,260 what's going on inside here why we're 232 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:35,760 out on the deck in there they're 233 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:37,770 skeptics masticating well there's no 234 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:39,810 investigation at the moment because we 235 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:41,610 don't have anything to masticate but 236 00:10:45,490 --> 00:10:43,290 there will be mastication there's a lot 237 00:10:48,560 --> 00:10:45,500 of discussion about the events of today 238 00:10:50,450 --> 00:10:48,570 Maynard yes um I was there at the TGA 239 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:50,460 discussion I had an earache and was 240 00:10:53,090 --> 00:10:51,810 trying to meditate and I thought know 241 00:10:54,590 --> 00:10:53,100 the last thing you want to be doing in a 242 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:54,600 room full of skeptics is to be caught in 243 00:10:57,680 --> 00:10:56,610 meditating yeah well did you hear what 244 00:10:59,240 --> 00:10:57,690 happened because I know you were hoping 245 00:11:00,470 --> 00:10:59,250 there was going to be a spring a moment 246 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:00,480 I was hoping for Springer I had the 247 00:11:04,390 --> 00:11:02,850 chair ready to go yeah well we didn't 248 00:11:06,430 --> 00:11:04,400 need security after all so 249 00:11:08,260 --> 00:11:06,440 nobody win when is someone going to go 250 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:08,270 crazy and get dragged from the room it's 251 00:11:11,470 --> 00:11:09,530 only reason I turned up at the skeptic 252 00:11:13,930 --> 00:11:11,480 stuff you know there was heckling at one 253 00:11:16,420 --> 00:11:13,940 point but it didn't last very long and 254 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:16,430 someone said and they stopped so that 255 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:18,530 was about as lively as it got I'm afraid 256 00:11:22,810 --> 00:11:20,450 I think the skeptics are just too polite 257 00:11:25,090 --> 00:11:22,820 sometimes not even someone at the back 258 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:25,100 guy nothing like that i was going 259 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:27,170 to shoot it quite a few times in fact 260 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:29,450 the moderator Christopher's in from 261 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:31,370 choice gave me a shout out in fact 262 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:33,410 because he mentioned he'd been to their 263 00:11:37,930 --> 00:11:35,450 skippers website today and the lead 264 00:11:39,580 --> 00:11:37,940 article said the TGA is ineffective and 265 00:11:42,250 --> 00:11:39,590 he said there was a quote there from dr. 266 00:11:44,650 --> 00:11:42,260 Rachel Dunlop saying dealing with the 267 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:44,660 TGA is like playing whack-a-mole and so 268 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:46,130 I sort of sunk a bit lower in my seat 269 00:11:50,380 --> 00:11:47,450 but then later I couldn't help myself 270 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:50,390 going and he did see me a 271 00:11:55,150 --> 00:11:52,250 couple of times but I think the outcome 272 00:11:58,120 --> 00:11:55,160 of that panel was basically that the TGA 273 00:12:00,280 --> 00:11:58,130 is to deal with the TGA is to play a 274 00:12:02,830 --> 00:12:00,290 game of whack-a-mole and that's not 275 00:12:04,750 --> 00:12:02,840 going to change anytime soon I also 276 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:04,760 heard the talk from the head of the CGA 277 00:12:09,250 --> 00:12:07,490 and you know you looking at his budget 278 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:09,260 and what he has to do they obviously 279 00:12:13,150 --> 00:12:11,330 can't do everything and I can understand 280 00:12:15,180 --> 00:12:13,160 why they do put the budget into the what 281 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:15,190 they consider to be high-risk things 282 00:12:19,030 --> 00:12:17,330 yeah but then they kept comparing 283 00:12:20,590 --> 00:12:19,040 themselves to health canada and saying 284 00:12:23,950 --> 00:12:20,600 that you know we're pretty much on par 285 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:23,960 with health canada and but we don't seem 286 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:25,610 to be performing as well as health 287 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:27,050 canada and i know that they've recently 288 00:12:31,660 --> 00:12:29,090 been consulting with health canada in 289 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:31,670 fact because they're trying to change 290 00:12:36,220 --> 00:12:33,890 the legislation around complementary 291 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:36,230 medicines or off to l products as we 292 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:39,250 sort of discuss a little bit today so i 293 00:12:45,090 --> 00:12:42,530 just the overwhelming thing I got from 294 00:12:48,700 --> 00:12:45,100 that panel from dr. Rowan Hammett was 295 00:12:50,590 --> 00:12:48,710 apology was just apologizing but not 296 00:12:52,780 --> 00:12:50,600 really giving any indication that 297 00:12:54,460 --> 00:12:52,790 changes of thought it was really like 298 00:12:56,260 --> 00:12:54,470 what we can't do this and we can't do 299 00:12:58,300 --> 00:12:56,270 that and we couldn't do that and we 300 00:12:59,620 --> 00:12:58,310 don't have enough staff and we can and a 301 00:13:02,170 --> 00:12:59,630 lot of the things he was talking about 302 00:13:04,060 --> 00:13:02,180 would be based would require legislative 303 00:13:06,430 --> 00:13:04,070 change as well and a whacking increase 304 00:13:08,500 --> 00:13:06,440 in their budget I agree it would require 305 00:13:11,170 --> 00:13:08,510 a legislation change I don't know about 306 00:13:12,949 --> 00:13:11,180 budget he didn't mention that but 307 00:13:15,590 --> 00:13:12,959 yes it would probably require 308 00:13:17,780 --> 00:13:15,600 legislation change and that's really 309 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:17,790 hard thatthat's lobbying that's fighting 310 00:13:21,829 --> 00:13:20,130 against interest groups no I don't think 311 00:13:23,689 --> 00:13:21,839 it is I mean that's part of the reason 312 00:13:25,759 --> 00:13:23,699 why they had the transparency review 313 00:13:27,410 --> 00:13:25,769 recently so they could gauge where 314 00:13:28,970 --> 00:13:27,420 they're going wrong plus they had the 315 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:28,980 National Audit Office go through their 316 00:13:32,150 --> 00:13:30,810 books and basically call them out for 317 00:13:33,860 --> 00:13:32,160 having about ninety percent of 318 00:13:37,009 --> 00:13:33,870 complementary medicines breaching 319 00:13:38,329 --> 00:13:37,019 regulations so I mean the thing that I 320 00:13:39,829 --> 00:13:38,339 found interesting about what Rowan was 321 00:13:42,050 --> 00:13:39,839 saying was he kept saying well you know 322 00:13:44,090 --> 00:13:42,060 we want to focus all our efforts on 323 00:13:46,790 --> 00:13:44,100 really dangerous drugs so like the ones 324 00:13:48,620 --> 00:13:46,800 that work so you know people get sick 325 00:13:50,900 --> 00:13:48,630 from overdoses of paracetamol all the 326 00:13:53,269 --> 00:13:50,910 time but in the meantime they're just 327 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:53,279 completely ignoring what's going on with 328 00:13:58,879 --> 00:13:56,370 cam and I don't think that you know even 329 00:14:00,470 --> 00:13:58,889 making slight changes like actually 330 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:00,480 looking at evidence before they let 331 00:14:04,340 --> 00:14:02,130 people register things would be that 332 00:14:05,689 --> 00:14:04,350 difficult I don't know and the other 333 00:14:08,060 --> 00:14:05,699 thing is I don't think they should be 334 00:14:10,189 --> 00:14:08,070 funded by the fighting industry now this 335 00:14:11,389 --> 00:14:10,199 is something that a lot of people on the 336 00:14:13,579 --> 00:14:11,399 alternative medicine so I would also 337 00:14:15,079 --> 00:14:13,589 agree with you with I've heard podcasts 338 00:14:17,150 --> 00:14:15,089 that are all about alternative stuff 339 00:14:18,590 --> 00:14:17,160 complaining that the TJ is in the pocket 340 00:14:21,230 --> 00:14:18,600 of big farmer for exactly the same 341 00:14:23,329 --> 00:14:21,240 reason are you ain't saying here I it's 342 00:14:25,340 --> 00:14:23,339 a conflict of interest and that applies 343 00:14:27,350 --> 00:14:25,350 across the board but the interesting 344 00:14:29,449 --> 00:14:27,360 thing about alternative medicine people 345 00:14:31,790 --> 00:14:29,459 is they keep squealing oh but Big Pharma 346 00:14:34,670 --> 00:14:31,800 big pharma big quacker has a huge amount 347 00:14:36,170 --> 00:14:34,680 of money big quacker sells about 2.5 348 00:14:38,210 --> 00:14:36,180 million dollars worth of products or 349 00:14:39,889 --> 00:14:38,220 billion a billion I thought so sorry I 350 00:14:41,090 --> 00:14:39,899 currently use to enjoy this on the 351 00:14:43,670 --> 00:14:41,100 podcast I think you'll find the 352 00:14:45,860 --> 00:14:43,680 political correct term is big placebo 353 00:14:48,170 --> 00:14:45,870 I'll be perceived by okay big bushy vote 354 00:14:49,670 --> 00:14:48,180 makes an awful lot of money I mean there 355 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:49,680 are some companies that I can't mention 356 00:14:56,509 --> 00:14:53,130 who certainly are in negotiations with 357 00:14:58,309 --> 00:14:56,519 the TGA about regulations of cam 358 00:15:01,430 --> 00:14:58,319 therapies and in particular this was off 359 00:15:03,379 --> 00:15:01,440 the back of the recommendation for the 360 00:15:06,259 --> 00:15:03,389 National Audit Office that complementary 361 00:15:08,660 --> 00:15:06,269 medicines have a big stamp on the bottle 362 00:15:10,009 --> 00:15:08,670 saying not tested and there's certain 363 00:15:12,199 --> 00:15:10,019 companies in Australia who are very 364 00:15:14,870 --> 00:15:12,209 unhappy about that because they stand to 365 00:15:16,730 --> 00:15:14,880 lose a lot of money so in that the 366 00:15:18,350 --> 00:15:16,740 difference that I think the real point 367 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:18,360 of this may not is the difference is 368 00:15:21,910 --> 00:15:19,250 that 369 00:15:24,700 --> 00:15:21,920 in Australia if you're a big farmer you 370 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:24,710 are not allowed to wine and dine doctors 371 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:26,210 you're not allowed to one and die in the 372 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:27,650 TGA you're not allowed to even give 373 00:15:31,770 --> 00:15:29,810 doctors appt n anymore there's a lot of 374 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:31,780 legislation about how you can actually 375 00:15:38,230 --> 00:15:35,690 behave around your you know doctors and 376 00:15:41,140 --> 00:15:38,240 the TGA with respect to big quacker or 377 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:41,150 big placebo they can still do that they 378 00:15:45,940 --> 00:15:43,850 want and dying pharmacists they want and 379 00:15:47,950 --> 00:15:45,950 die in the TGA so whilst they're also 380 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:47,960 paying for the products to be on that 381 00:15:51,730 --> 00:15:50,090 list they're also taking those people 382 00:15:53,530 --> 00:15:51,740 out that are regulating that feeding 383 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:53,540 them wine feeding them parties feeding 384 00:15:57,820 --> 00:15:55,130 them all sorts of stuff and then saying 385 00:15:59,950 --> 00:15:57,830 oh please don't be mean to our products 386 00:16:01,930 --> 00:15:59,960 that is a conflict of interest and that 387 00:16:04,090 --> 00:16:01,940 does not happen with big pharma so the 388 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:04,100 people that say our big pharma runs TGA 389 00:16:08,470 --> 00:16:05,690 I think they'll find that's probably not 390 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:08,480 a lot of evidence for that but you have 391 00:16:11,950 --> 00:16:10,130 to understand the tj's point of view in 392 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:11,960 that they have a limited budget and they 393 00:16:16,030 --> 00:16:14,210 see the other end of things as being 394 00:16:17,590 --> 00:16:16,040 much more dangerous where they see some 395 00:16:19,180 --> 00:16:17,600 harmless diet pills that really have no 396 00:16:21,460 --> 00:16:19,190 effect either way as not really 397 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:21,470 contributing to as much harm or 398 00:16:25,090 --> 00:16:23,450 potential for that's when we think I 399 00:16:26,620 --> 00:16:25,100 guess that's when we talk about scams 400 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:26,630 and whether it's ethical of them to let 401 00:16:29,890 --> 00:16:28,730 scans go on I mean I think in an ideal 402 00:16:32,110 --> 00:16:29,900 world I think they should be swallowed 403 00:16:34,180 --> 00:16:32,120 up by the a Triple C I mean we had a guy 404 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:34,190 there today from the age Triple C they 405 00:16:38,290 --> 00:16:35,810 actually take action you know they had 406 00:16:41,470 --> 00:16:38,300 Peter Foster arrested today for his role 407 00:16:43,210 --> 00:16:41,480 in sense asleep and other things so to 408 00:16:44,500 --> 00:16:43,220 me it just seems like the TGA is chasing 409 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:44,510 their tail they're saying we haven't got 410 00:16:47,860 --> 00:16:46,250 enough money but what are they doing 411 00:16:48,910 --> 00:16:47,870 with that money nothing I don't think 412 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:48,920 they're doing anything with that money 413 00:16:52,150 --> 00:16:50,810 that I can see and you know row and 414 00:16:53,710 --> 00:16:52,160 Hammett was all about oh we don't want 415 00:16:56,050 --> 00:16:53,720 another flutamide in this country but 416 00:16:58,390 --> 00:16:56,060 they're taking advice on products like 417 00:17:00,130 --> 00:16:58,400 that from the FDA anyway so I'm not 418 00:17:01,750 --> 00:17:00,140 they're not doing clinical studies into 419 00:17:03,820 --> 00:17:01,760 thalidomide they're not doing clinical 420 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:03,830 trials that stops coming from overseas 421 00:17:08,490 --> 00:17:06,530 so as far as I can tell they're sending 422 00:17:11,949 --> 00:17:08,500 memos to each other and making excuses 423 00:17:13,510 --> 00:17:11,959 so that budget 120 million bucks a year 424 00:17:15,189 --> 00:17:13,520 would be better spent by someone like 425 00:17:17,559 --> 00:17:15,199 the a triple c you could actually do 426 00:17:19,630 --> 00:17:17,569 something useful so how do we as 427 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:19,640 skeptics and people who want to be more 428 00:17:22,449 --> 00:17:21,170 active in this area do anything I mean 429 00:17:24,309 --> 00:17:22,459 is it writing a letter to a member of 430 00:17:26,530 --> 00:17:24,319 parliament is that getting out with a 431 00:17:28,150 --> 00:17:26,540 sandwich board and a funny hat which is 432 00:17:29,250 --> 00:17:28,160 probably the route I would take because 433 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:29,260 i find that always 434 00:17:34,620 --> 00:17:32,410 I'm gonna do a nerdy dance um later on 435 00:17:36,420 --> 00:17:34,630 tonight between a sandwich board and the 436 00:17:38,580 --> 00:17:36,430 nudie dance I think we've got to be 437 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:38,590 we've got real social change no but 438 00:17:42,780 --> 00:17:40,330 actually seriously somebody did ask this 439 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:42,790 question of the panel today and can 440 00:17:46,710 --> 00:17:44,170 hardly responded that you should write 441 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:46,720 to your MP so for example there's a lot 442 00:17:52,140 --> 00:17:48,490 of legislation that is currently sitting 443 00:17:54,900 --> 00:17:52,150 on Catherine Kings desk she's the MP is 444 00:17:56,610 --> 00:17:54,910 in charge of the TGA or overseeing the 445 00:17:58,110 --> 00:17:56,620 TGA legislation wouldn't it be safer 446 00:18:00,060 --> 00:17:58,120 chic if she just kind of kept it in the 447 00:18:02,070 --> 00:18:00,070 drawer I mean it could blow off the desk 448 00:18:04,140 --> 00:18:02,080 might get lost over the weekend cleaner 449 00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:04,150 could mix it up possibly yeah I don't 450 00:18:08,700 --> 00:18:06,130 know exactly where I don't know if ken 451 00:18:10,500 --> 00:18:08,710 has precise evidence that it's sitting 452 00:18:13,380 --> 00:18:10,510 on a desk it might be in a filing 453 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:13,390 cabinet but suffice to say she hasn't 454 00:18:18,050 --> 00:18:16,090 moved on it since March 2011 see I just 455 00:18:19,950 --> 00:18:18,060 demand the irrelevant facts at all times 456 00:18:22,020 --> 00:18:19,960 well you know what we should do 457 00:18:23,700 --> 00:18:22,030 considering I'm a Batman apparently of 458 00:18:25,380 --> 00:18:23,710 skepticism we should fly there without 459 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:25,390 undies on the outside of our pants and 460 00:18:29,010 --> 00:18:27,730 see if we can find them so when do you 461 00:18:30,120 --> 00:18:29,020 think there'll be some movement on this 462 00:18:32,370 --> 00:18:30,130 do when do you think it will actually 463 00:18:34,890 --> 00:18:32,380 get off a desk and go somewhere else 464 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:34,900 that might be useful I have no idea I 465 00:18:38,100 --> 00:18:36,850 mean how long's the piece of string I 466 00:18:39,510 --> 00:18:38,110 don't know I don't think Ken knows I 467 00:18:41,100 --> 00:18:39,520 don't think Rowan knows I mean rolling 468 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:41,110 couldn't get out of there fast enough to 469 00:18:45,450 --> 00:18:43,450 drive back to Canberra I mean I have to 470 00:18:46,770 --> 00:18:45,460 say I did feel a bit sorry for him he 471 00:18:49,260 --> 00:18:46,780 was sitting on a panel with a guy from 472 00:18:51,270 --> 00:18:49,270 the a Triple C ken harvey who's a serial 473 00:18:53,430 --> 00:18:51,280 complainer or has been labeled a serial 474 00:18:55,650 --> 00:18:53,440 complainer and Christopher's in from 475 00:18:58,290 --> 00:18:55,660 choice who just two weeks ago gave the 476 00:19:00,360 --> 00:18:58,300 TGA a dishonorable mention in the shonky 477 00:19:04,230 --> 00:19:00,370 Awards so he wasn't actually in a 478 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:04,240 friendly environment so it's a long way 479 00:19:08,670 --> 00:19:05,890 to drive from Canada Sidney for you know 480 00:19:09,990 --> 00:19:08,680 for them you know hiding well I believe 481 00:19:12,060 --> 00:19:10,000 he'd already been at a conference in 482 00:19:13,470 --> 00:19:12,070 Sydney earlier this week I think in 483 00:19:14,790 --> 00:19:13,480 darling harbour in fact which is where 484 00:19:17,790 --> 00:19:14,800 we are now so I don't think he drove all 485 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:17,800 the way for that as far as i know but i 486 00:19:20,970 --> 00:19:19,090 don't think that's going to be much 487 00:19:22,110 --> 00:19:20,980 movement in in the near future may not i 488 00:19:24,270 --> 00:19:22,120 think we're just going to have to wait 489 00:19:26,220 --> 00:19:24,280 and all you can do is just keep I guess 490 00:19:27,390 --> 00:19:26,230 keep pushing the the MPS because they're 491 00:19:30,180 --> 00:19:27,400 the ones that can change the legislation 492 00:19:31,290 --> 00:19:30,190 if that's what it needs to be done Rowan 493 00:19:33,420 --> 00:19:31,300 hammett's between a rock and a hard 494 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:33,430 place he can't do very much and so of 495 00:19:36,110 --> 00:19:34,930 course is going to make some excuses and 496 00:19:37,700 --> 00:19:36,120 obfuscate because 497 00:19:40,010 --> 00:19:37,710 else can he do I mean I honestly I think 498 00:19:42,500 --> 00:19:40,020 he's but be embarrassed and he should be 499 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:42,510 because it is embarrassing basically his 500 00:19:46,790 --> 00:19:45,330 his organization has do nothing and he's 501 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:46,800 sitting next to a guy from the HR we'll 502 00:19:51,830 --> 00:19:49,530 see who's beaming today because he 503 00:19:53,210 --> 00:19:51,840 arranged to get Peter Foster arrested 504 00:19:54,950 --> 00:19:53,220 this morning just in time for the 505 00:19:57,380 --> 00:19:54,960 convention although that may not be 506 00:19:59,420 --> 00:19:57,390 entirely true now you're falling prey to 507 00:20:00,950 --> 00:19:59,430 conspiracy theories next we'll be 508 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:00,960 hosting jesse ventura's conspiracy 509 00:20:05,810 --> 00:20:02,970 theory show which would be fun i'd like 510 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:05,820 to see you on that no well it was a 511 00:20:10,130 --> 00:20:08,010 coincidence a pedophile a triple scenes 512 00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:10,140 in bed with the skeptics but the edge 513 00:20:13,730 --> 00:20:11,130 people think i'm pretty happy with 514 00:20:15,140 --> 00:20:13,740 themselves at the moment and Paul Rowan 515 00:20:17,180 --> 00:20:15,150 was sitting there going or we can't do 516 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:17,190 anything cuz where our hands are tied so 517 00:20:20,930 --> 00:20:19,050 you know I don't know you just gotta 518 00:20:23,030 --> 00:20:20,940 keep fighting and one day maybe we'll 519 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:23,040 see the legislation change and the thing 520 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:24,570 is it's about consumer protection in the 521 00:20:27,890 --> 00:20:25,890 end you know it's not about a bunch of 522 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:27,900 grumpy skeptics jumping up and down hand 523 00:20:32,120 --> 00:20:30,450 waving it's about protection of the 524 00:20:34,490 --> 00:20:32,130 public and it's about health claims that 525 00:20:36,050 --> 00:20:34,500 that can't be substantiated so it's in 526 00:20:37,670 --> 00:20:36,060 the bigger picture it's important that 527 00:20:39,950 --> 00:20:37,680 this happens but it's going to take a 528 00:20:41,270 --> 00:20:39,960 long time and before we get um what's 529 00:20:42,260 --> 00:20:41,280 your latest thing on you in your sights 530 00:20:44,810 --> 00:20:42,270 what's the next one you're going to be 531 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:44,820 looking at oh well the next bunch of 532 00:20:47,990 --> 00:20:45,570 people are going to be annoying 533 00:20:49,910 --> 00:20:48,000 basically well basically I was walking 534 00:20:52,580 --> 00:20:49,920 to this dinner tonight and Loretta Marin 535 00:20:54,470 --> 00:20:52,590 shoved an envelope under my face as she 536 00:20:56,300 --> 00:20:54,480 walked past me on that would be her 537 00:20:58,070 --> 00:20:56,310 substantial bribes she often pays to the 538 00:20:59,660 --> 00:20:58,080 skeptics for her award oh no there 539 00:21:00,800 --> 00:20:59,670 wasn't money in there but I think it's 540 00:21:02,090 --> 00:21:00,810 one of those things why they won't pay 541 00:21:04,430 --> 00:21:02,100 attention to if she's not handing of 542 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:04,440 envelopes of money it's a way I kind of 543 00:21:07,670 --> 00:21:05,730 deal where you read it and then it blows 544 00:21:08,570 --> 00:21:07,680 up or something I haven't read it yet 545 00:21:10,850 --> 00:21:08,580 but it's something to do with 546 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:10,860 traditional Chinese medicine and she's 547 00:21:13,970 --> 00:21:12,690 saying that I am that she wants me to 548 00:21:15,710 --> 00:21:13,980 look at some traditional chinese 549 00:21:17,780 --> 00:21:15,720 medicine claims so i think that's 550 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:17,790 something I've got to do next I take 551 00:21:22,970 --> 00:21:19,650 five or six grams of feed it every day 552 00:21:25,220 --> 00:21:22,980 it's everything i do / o vida a fee drum 553 00:21:27,410 --> 00:21:25,230 a feature what's that that's what they 554 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:27,420 get if it ring from and I think if you I 555 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:28,650 think if you want to get it i think the 556 00:21:31,910 --> 00:21:29,850 only way to get it would be through 557 00:21:34,370 --> 00:21:31,920 Chinese herbalist says it it has a 558 00:21:35,420 --> 00:21:34,380 somewhat amphetamine type effect I see 559 00:21:37,850 --> 00:21:35,430 is that why you're talking so fast 560 00:21:39,740 --> 00:21:37,860 tonight correct okay we have to go on 561 00:21:41,180 --> 00:21:39,750 eat now okay bye alright so I'm not 562 00:21:43,249 --> 00:21:41,190 going I might have a few do is go home I 563 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:43,259 max I might have routing to run home 564 00:21:51,349 --> 00:21:49,609 well I'm on the front of the boat and 565 00:21:52,729 --> 00:21:51,359 the boat seems to be getting a distinct 566 00:21:54,919 --> 00:21:52,739 lean on it or it could be just the 567 00:21:56,570 --> 00:21:54,929 night's going on but someone who was 568 00:21:58,639 --> 00:21:56,580 going on and going off kicking the day 569 00:22:01,159 --> 00:21:58,649 off at the conference this morning was 570 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:01,169 dr. John Williams and what was the name 571 00:22:05,330 --> 00:22:03,090 of your talk a great title it was called 572 00:22:07,489 --> 00:22:05,340 the even more skeptical plastic surgery 573 00:22:09,859 --> 00:22:07,499 now how long you been in that cosmetic 574 00:22:11,539 --> 00:22:09,869 industry for well it's I'm a general 575 00:22:13,460 --> 00:22:11,549 plastic surgeon I do reconstructive and 576 00:22:15,169 --> 00:22:13,470 cosmetic like all fully trained plastic 577 00:22:17,629 --> 00:22:15,179 surgeons do I've been in private 578 00:22:18,859 --> 00:22:17,639 practice after my years of training here 579 00:22:21,830 --> 00:22:18,869 and overseas have been in private 580 00:22:23,989 --> 00:22:21,840 practice since nineteen seventy-four now 581 00:22:25,639 --> 00:22:23,999 what attracted you to that field you 582 00:22:26,330 --> 00:22:25,649 could have been a regular dermatologist 583 00:22:27,769 --> 00:22:26,340 you could have gone into 584 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:27,779 gastroenterology you could have gone 585 00:22:31,849 --> 00:22:30,090 into neurology why plastic surgery well 586 00:22:33,470 --> 00:22:31,859 I rented the general surgery first I did 587 00:22:35,989 --> 00:22:33,480 a full general surgery training and then 588 00:22:37,759 --> 00:22:35,999 found that the the challenge is the 589 00:22:39,009 --> 00:22:37,769 plastic surgery the reconstructive side 590 00:22:41,330 --> 00:22:39,019 of it particularly at that stage 591 00:22:43,039 --> 00:22:41,340 intrigued me so I then when did the 592 00:22:45,049 --> 00:22:43,049 plastic surgery here and then and it 593 00:22:47,479 --> 00:22:45,059 three more years in Britain and America 594 00:22:49,580 --> 00:22:47,489 purely in plastic surgery in overseas 595 00:22:51,590 --> 00:22:49,590 units what do you think has been the 596 00:22:53,509 --> 00:22:51,600 most exciting development in cosmetic 597 00:22:55,820 --> 00:22:53,519 surgery you know in the last 10 years in 598 00:22:57,859 --> 00:22:55,830 cosmetic or in plastic surgery generally 599 00:22:59,840 --> 00:22:57,869 ah as a layman I'm probably getting the 600 00:23:02,720 --> 00:22:59,850 terms mixed up you know look I think I 601 00:23:05,149 --> 00:23:02,730 believe that the two aspects are part of 602 00:23:07,609 --> 00:23:05,159 the same spectrum I think cosmetic is to 603 00:23:09,979 --> 00:23:07,619 do purely with appearance reconstructive 604 00:23:12,109 --> 00:23:09,989 is function and most surgery is a 605 00:23:13,249 --> 00:23:12,119 mixture of the two and I do believe that 606 00:23:16,820 --> 00:23:13,259 you've got to be a properly trained 607 00:23:18,409 --> 00:23:16,830 surgeon and trained in cosmetic as well 608 00:23:20,629 --> 00:23:18,419 as reconstructive surgery to do either 609 00:23:22,749 --> 00:23:20,639 of them properly well what is the latest 610 00:23:26,599 --> 00:23:22,759 development that actually has efficacy 611 00:23:29,570 --> 00:23:26,609 well that's okay you had to say that 612 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:29,580 it's really in question I don't know 613 00:23:34,070 --> 00:23:32,369 medicine generally and surgery overall 614 00:23:36,649 --> 00:23:34,080 is of course progressing that we all 615 00:23:39,830 --> 00:23:36,659 hear about the surgical tribes treating 616 00:23:43,549 --> 00:23:39,840 people with limb injuries and replants 617 00:23:46,070 --> 00:23:43,559 and burns and treating and melanomas and 618 00:23:47,989 --> 00:23:46,080 so forth but as far as cosmetic surgery 619 00:23:50,379 --> 00:23:47,999 we're altering appearance and in my book 620 00:23:54,289 --> 00:23:50,389 we're trying to create normality either 621 00:23:56,390 --> 00:23:54,299 restore or create or enhance normality 622 00:23:57,740 --> 00:23:56,400 and my emphasis are always on 623 00:23:59,720 --> 00:23:57,750 morality I think we're trying to produce 624 00:24:01,730 --> 00:23:59,730 the result that looks normal it may well 625 00:24:03,590 --> 00:24:01,740 be enhanced according to the patient's 626 00:24:04,910 --> 00:24:03,600 wishes so that they like what they see 627 00:24:07,010 --> 00:24:04,920 in the mirror in the morning and have a 628 00:24:09,470 --> 00:24:07,020 good day because of that but i think the 629 00:24:10,970 --> 00:24:09,480 aim is to have it normal and ideally in 630 00:24:12,860 --> 00:24:10,980 a few months time to have the patient 631 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:12,870 even forget they've had the surgery 632 00:24:16,310 --> 00:24:14,490 because what they see is something that 633 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:16,320 they regard as normal something I've got 634 00:24:21,290 --> 00:24:19,530 used to and it just literally skips 635 00:24:22,730 --> 00:24:21,300 their mind at that stage if they're 636 00:24:24,470 --> 00:24:22,740 still looking in the mirror and seeing 637 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:24,480 some reminder of their surgery months 638 00:24:29,870 --> 00:24:26,250 later than it usually means that 639 00:24:32,060 --> 00:24:29,880 something's not totally normal how huge 640 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:32,070 a psychological component is there when 641 00:24:35,360 --> 00:24:33,330 a patient comes through the door you've 642 00:24:36,980 --> 00:24:35,370 got to try and figure out why they're 643 00:24:38,570 --> 00:24:36,990 doing this and whether it is really 644 00:24:40,810 --> 00:24:38,580 truly a healthy change it's all about 645 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:40,820 their body image and whether their 646 00:24:47,570 --> 00:24:44,330 internal body body image is 647 00:24:49,970 --> 00:24:47,580 realistically equivalent to what I see 648 00:24:52,460 --> 00:24:49,980 now if a patient comes in and says I 649 00:24:54,050 --> 00:24:52,470 asked them what what do they see wrong 650 00:24:56,060 --> 00:24:54,060 what would they like me to try and do 651 00:24:58,730 --> 00:24:56,070 and then I'll sit down all interview of 652 00:25:00,560 --> 00:24:58,740 them usually from about a half an hour 653 00:25:02,900 --> 00:25:00,570 the first time but I don't lay it on too 654 00:25:04,850 --> 00:25:02,910 hard as far as the details because I 655 00:25:06,950 --> 00:25:04,860 don't think too many people really 656 00:25:08,660 --> 00:25:06,960 register what you've said in the first 657 00:25:10,820 --> 00:25:08,670 consultation now most people are feeling 658 00:25:12,950 --> 00:25:10,830 a bit embarrassed if they're coming in 659 00:25:14,750 --> 00:25:12,960 to ask about what is in effect cosmetic 660 00:25:17,060 --> 00:25:14,760 surgery they think the surgeons going to 661 00:25:18,350 --> 00:25:17,070 laugh at them and I find with most 662 00:25:20,210 --> 00:25:18,360 people while I'm watching them and I 663 00:25:21,980 --> 00:25:20,220 guess I'm getting a bit used to after 664 00:25:23,690 --> 00:25:21,990 all these years watching the body 665 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:23,700 language watching the patient's reaction 666 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:25,770 if I say no I'm not laughing at them 667 00:25:29,570 --> 00:25:28,170 they kind of relax and the shadows drop 668 00:25:31,940 --> 00:25:29,580 and they don't really hear very much 669 00:25:33,770 --> 00:25:31,950 more so we have a chat and I give them a 670 00:25:36,290 --> 00:25:33,780 brief overview of what we can and can't 671 00:25:38,750 --> 00:25:36,300 do and a very brief overview of what 672 00:25:40,070 --> 00:25:38,760 they can expect take photographs and 673 00:25:41,390 --> 00:25:40,080 then get them back a week or two later 674 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:41,400 after I've given them information 675 00:25:44,930 --> 00:25:42,930 brochure so they've had a chance to 676 00:25:47,060 --> 00:25:44,940 think about it to read the brochures 677 00:25:49,070 --> 00:25:47,070 encourage them to get another opinion if 678 00:25:50,540 --> 00:25:49,080 they'd care to I don't think there was 679 00:25:51,060 --> 00:25:50,550 anything to be gained by telling them 680 00:25:53,129 --> 00:25:51,070 I'm the only 681 00:25:54,539 --> 00:25:53,139 one that can do this and if they care to 682 00:25:56,700 --> 00:25:54,549 come back in a week or 2 i've got the 683 00:25:58,769 --> 00:25:56,710 photographs there very often people 684 00:26:00,720 --> 00:25:58,779 don't see themselves as the camera does 685 00:26:02,999 --> 00:26:00,730 and i said well this is actually what 686 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:03,009 you like it's back the front because 687 00:26:06,149 --> 00:26:04,330 you're used to looking at it in the 688 00:26:08,549 --> 00:26:06,159 mirror but that's really what you look 689 00:26:10,110 --> 00:26:08,559 like and tell me again if you've got 690 00:26:11,879 --> 00:26:10,120 some questions relating to the brochures 691 00:26:13,710 --> 00:26:11,889 the information I've given you let me 692 00:26:15,930 --> 00:26:13,720 tell you again what I think I can do and 693 00:26:18,629 --> 00:26:15,940 let me give you a full rundown of the 694 00:26:20,340 --> 00:26:18,639 potential complications I don't make any 695 00:26:21,930 --> 00:26:20,350 any bones without saying look I can make 696 00:26:24,360 --> 00:26:21,940 you worse plastic surgery is real 697 00:26:26,639 --> 00:26:24,370 surgery I can make you worse if you come 698 00:26:29,549 --> 00:26:26,649 to see me to have some change in your 699 00:26:30,990 --> 00:26:29,559 appearance and if I make you worse then 700 00:26:32,310 --> 00:26:31,000 you're going to be devastated and we 701 00:26:34,259 --> 00:26:32,320 take this all the time when something 702 00:26:36,629 --> 00:26:34,269 goes wrong now all surgery has got 703 00:26:38,759 --> 00:26:36,639 potential risks including all my surgery 704 00:26:40,409 --> 00:26:38,769 I tell them quite clearly that I've been 705 00:26:42,899 --> 00:26:40,419 around long enough to either see or have 706 00:26:44,580 --> 00:26:42,909 just about every non complication which 707 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:44,590 either means I'm not very good or maybe 708 00:26:48,210 --> 00:26:46,330 I've got some idea of how to avoid them 709 00:26:50,159 --> 00:26:48,220 and recognize them and treat them and 710 00:26:51,629 --> 00:26:50,169 that's the way it is now if you want me 711 00:26:53,369 --> 00:26:51,639 to operate and if i'm prepared to 712 00:26:54,919 --> 00:26:53,379 operate and i'm not a lot of people back 713 00:26:57,149 --> 00:26:54,929 if I can't produce the result that I 714 00:26:59,430 --> 00:26:57,159 realistically think they want what is 715 00:27:01,529 --> 00:26:59,440 the major red flag for you where you go 716 00:27:03,629 --> 00:27:01,539 or know this person patient that's 717 00:27:05,029 --> 00:27:03,639 pushing me into surgery and doesn't want 718 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:05,039 to hear about things that could go wrong 719 00:27:09,419 --> 00:27:07,330 because they can that's that's life 720 00:27:11,129 --> 00:27:09,429 things can happen and if that sort of 721 00:27:13,049 --> 00:27:11,139 person is pushing me at a surgery on 722 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:13,059 I'll always get the back for third 723 00:27:17,669 --> 00:27:15,610 consultation I put my personal practice 724 00:27:21,210 --> 00:27:17,679 is to have people back for as many other 725 00:27:23,039 --> 00:27:21,220 consultations no charge after the second 726 00:27:25,590 --> 00:27:23,049 consultation because it's in my interest 727 00:27:27,869 --> 00:27:25,600 as well as theirs but they should be as 728 00:27:30,060 --> 00:27:27,879 fully informed as they want to be or as 729 00:27:32,070 --> 00:27:30,070 I think they need to be there's a gray 730 00:27:34,619 --> 00:27:32,080 area here which follows on from that 731 00:27:36,869 --> 00:27:34,629 Rogers in Whitaker tort case how much do 732 00:27:38,519 --> 00:27:36,879 you tell the patient now I do in fact 733 00:27:40,139 --> 00:27:38,529 say to people look this is real surgery 734 00:27:42,029 --> 00:27:40,149 and people die under this under the 735 00:27:43,259 --> 00:27:42,039 surgeon's knife but you'll spoil my 736 00:27:45,269 --> 00:27:43,269 record because I've never actually had 737 00:27:46,860 --> 00:27:45,279 this happen but it's like crossing the 738 00:27:48,330 --> 00:27:46,870 road the more careful you are the better 739 00:27:50,369 --> 00:27:48,340 the chance you've got to get across the 740 00:27:51,509 --> 00:27:50,379 road somewhere out there today somebody 741 00:27:53,940 --> 00:27:51,519 who's careful is going to get run over 742 00:27:55,019 --> 00:27:53,950 it's the same with surgery you don't 743 00:27:56,970 --> 00:27:55,029 have surgery unless you've got a good 744 00:27:58,200 --> 00:27:56,980 reason and I say nobody operates on me 745 00:28:00,659 --> 00:27:58,210 for a very good without a very good 746 00:28:02,700 --> 00:28:00,669 reason but this is the score these are 747 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:02,710 the pros and cons and if you're prepared 748 00:28:08,430 --> 00:28:07,090 to accept that sort of situation I'll do 749 00:28:10,350 --> 00:28:08,440 what I can to help you if you don't like 750 00:28:11,399 --> 00:28:10,360 the sound of that well then maybe you 751 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:11,409 ought to go and think about it some more 752 00:28:15,750 --> 00:28:13,690 now in your talk today you were probably 753 00:28:17,610 --> 00:28:15,760 dealing with people who work in the area 754 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:17,620 that probably don't take as much care 755 00:28:20,310 --> 00:28:19,090 with their patients as that and they're 756 00:28:22,529 --> 00:28:20,320 probably just interested in a rotating 757 00:28:24,419 --> 00:28:22,539 cash flow well I believe that if you're 758 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:24,429 going to do this sort of search you've 759 00:28:28,769 --> 00:28:26,010 got to be a fully trained surgeon 760 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:28,779 postgraduate surgery that is in the 761 00:28:33,149 --> 00:28:31,450 olden days 50 60 years ago by the time 762 00:28:35,310 --> 00:28:33,159 you got out of medical school you really 763 00:28:37,649 --> 00:28:35,320 had a pretty fair grasp of everything 764 00:28:39,869 --> 00:28:37,659 that surgery had to offer apart from the 765 00:28:41,279 --> 00:28:39,879 more sophisticated things when you 766 00:28:44,490 --> 00:28:41,289 attend the patient off to a true 767 00:28:46,980 --> 00:28:44,500 consultant well this situation doesn't 768 00:28:48,990 --> 00:28:46,990 apply anymore because the scope of 769 00:28:51,330 --> 00:28:49,000 medicine is so great including the scope 770 00:28:55,470 --> 00:28:51,340 of surgery that you can't hope to have 771 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:55,480 that complete extent of knowledge in 772 00:28:59,460 --> 00:28:57,010 surgery by the time you come out as a 773 00:29:01,830 --> 00:28:59,470 postgraduate doctor in your first year 774 00:29:03,539 --> 00:29:01,840 or second year out so then if you want 775 00:29:05,669 --> 00:29:03,549 to do any sort of serious so you've got 776 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:05,679 to go and spend a number of years and 777 00:29:09,539 --> 00:29:07,210 that sometimes it's another five or six 778 00:29:11,310 --> 00:29:09,549 years doing postgraduate surgical 779 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:11,320 training in a particular specialty 780 00:29:17,159 --> 00:29:13,570 because the knowledge is so involved and 781 00:29:20,340 --> 00:29:17,169 so extensive so in my book I don't think 782 00:29:22,919 --> 00:29:20,350 it's appropriate to come out as a in our 783 00:29:24,659 --> 00:29:22,929 fresh graduate and then start doing any 784 00:29:25,919 --> 00:29:24,669 sort of significant surgery because you 785 00:29:29,279 --> 00:29:25,929 really don't have the background of 786 00:29:30,810 --> 00:29:29,289 wound healing wound management surgical 787 00:29:32,310 --> 00:29:30,820 anatomy all the sort of things that you 788 00:29:34,470 --> 00:29:32,320 need to know if you're going to operate 789 00:29:35,580 --> 00:29:34,480 on somebody that I would want the 790 00:29:38,310 --> 00:29:35,590 surgeon to know if he was going to 791 00:29:40,590 --> 00:29:38,320 operate on me so do you think it's just 792 00:29:42,180 --> 00:29:40,600 merely a cash motivational thing well I 793 00:29:45,090 --> 00:29:42,190 think it's probably is the case because 794 00:29:47,039 --> 00:29:45,100 I think general practice for many people 795 00:29:50,279 --> 00:29:47,049 is perhaps not challenging enough and i 796 00:29:52,540 --> 00:29:50,289 think the the financial rewards for 797 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:52,550 general practice in many cases of really 798 00:29:56,350 --> 00:29:54,890 I less than they deserve did you think 799 00:29:57,820 --> 00:29:56,360 it's a little bit underrated within the 800 00:30:00,760 --> 00:29:57,830 medical world i mean it's preventative 801 00:30:02,650 --> 00:30:00,770 frontline medicine what is being a GP no 802 00:30:04,900 --> 00:30:02,660 no no I come from a family his father 803 00:30:07,930 --> 00:30:04,910 was a GP was an old-style GP I have the 804 00:30:10,210 --> 00:30:07,940 most enormous music I just feel that 805 00:30:11,980 --> 00:30:10,220 sometimes that they don't get the 806 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:11,990 support and wrap that they should get 807 00:30:16,090 --> 00:30:13,730 I'm sure they don't and I have great 808 00:30:18,250 --> 00:30:16,100 respect for GPS I don't think they get 809 00:30:20,290 --> 00:30:18,260 adequate remuneration I think they they 810 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:20,300 carry a lot more responsibility to be 811 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:21,530 give them credit for but I think a lot 812 00:30:25,630 --> 00:30:23,810 of them feel that their situation is 813 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:25,640 inadequate in terms of the challenges 814 00:30:29,530 --> 00:30:27,890 and in terms of the financial rewards 815 00:30:31,210 --> 00:30:29,540 and I think a lot of them then drift 816 00:30:33,670 --> 00:30:31,220 into a cosmetic surgery because it looks 817 00:30:35,530 --> 00:30:33,680 like an easy thing to do and it is by 818 00:30:37,210 --> 00:30:35,540 and large an area where a lot of people 819 00:30:39,130 --> 00:30:37,220 see that they can make money a little 820 00:30:40,660 --> 00:30:39,140 more easily I think it's very hard to 821 00:30:42,250 --> 00:30:40,670 make money out of that sort of surgery 822 00:30:44,170 --> 00:30:42,260 because you've really got to put a lot 823 00:30:46,030 --> 00:30:44,180 of effort and time into it I don't think 824 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:46,040 it's easy surgery even though it looks 825 00:30:50,650 --> 00:30:48,650 easy it is easy to get customers but I 826 00:30:52,210 --> 00:30:50,660 guess well I think if you advertise now 827 00:30:54,190 --> 00:30:52,220 I'm old-fashioned I don't believe in 828 00:30:55,870 --> 00:30:54,200 advertising I don't think roadside 829 00:30:58,060 --> 00:30:55,880 billboards I don't think there's glossy 830 00:31:00,730 --> 00:30:58,070 ads with fancy looking befores and 831 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:00,740 afters I think a lot of these over cover 832 00:31:05,140 --> 00:31:03,770 come-ons that I would expect perhaps a 833 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:05,150 bit more appropriate the years car 834 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:07,490 dealers sometimes it only it's the bait 835 00:31:12,460 --> 00:31:09,890 and switch almost in some cases and I 836 00:31:14,650 --> 00:31:12,470 think that's not fair and I think you 837 00:31:16,750 --> 00:31:14,660 may well be that some of these surgeons 838 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:16,760 actually don't know the potential 839 00:31:19,870 --> 00:31:18,410 problems you know it looks easy and 840 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:19,880 they'll tell the patient that is easy 841 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:21,530 whereas those of us that have been 842 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:23,330 through the mill for so many years and 843 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:25,370 as I've seen just about every 844 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:27,530 complication and had most of them it 845 00:31:31,630 --> 00:31:29,330 slows you right down and you're very 846 00:31:33,100 --> 00:31:31,640 reluctant to talk to patients into any 847 00:31:35,270 --> 00:31:33,110 surgery because you know what the 848 00:31:37,670 --> 00:31:35,280 downside could possibly be 849 00:31:39,410 --> 00:31:37,680 and look look at myself in the mirror I 850 00:31:41,180 --> 00:31:39,420 go gee I wish I could look 10 years 851 00:31:42,740 --> 00:31:41,190 younger and I could probably maybe do 852 00:31:45,140 --> 00:31:42,750 that if I just baby lost a bit of weight 853 00:31:46,250 --> 00:31:45,150 exercise baby change my lifestyle a bit 854 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:46,260 more do you think a lot of people that 855 00:31:49,700 --> 00:31:47,850 turn up at your door sometimes are in 856 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:49,710 that category well absolutely and I try 857 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:51,570 and tell people that they you know it's 858 00:31:55,370 --> 00:31:53,850 not just a case of having surgery to 859 00:31:57,910 --> 00:31:55,380 make up for your deficiencies in your 860 00:31:59,840 --> 00:31:57,920 lifestyle losing weight certainly 861 00:32:01,850 --> 00:31:59,850 exercising all those sort of things that 862 00:32:03,290 --> 00:32:01,860 we all ought to do and I confess to them 863 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:03,300 that I'm sitting behind a desk and I'm 864 00:32:06,740 --> 00:32:05,250 not exercising as much as I should it's 865 00:32:08,690 --> 00:32:06,750 a hard sell on that stuff but isn't it 866 00:32:10,850 --> 00:32:08,700 well exactly but then I say well I'm not 867 00:32:13,430 --> 00:32:10,860 having the surgery so you're having the 868 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:13,440 surgery so in fact you ought to be the 869 00:32:16,700 --> 00:32:14,610 one that gives me the best possible 870 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:16,710 material to work on smoking something 871 00:32:21,830 --> 00:32:18,930 that's a real problem if a patient says 872 00:32:23,420 --> 00:32:21,840 there are smokers I just tell them that 873 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:23,430 the complication rates going to be far 874 00:32:27,230 --> 00:32:25,890 higher and that's something that you 875 00:32:29,330 --> 00:32:27,240 know smoking does interfere with wound 876 00:32:31,460 --> 00:32:29,340 healing is and what the what is the 877 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:31,470 effective it is it sort of the oh yeah 878 00:32:35,210 --> 00:32:32,970 what does it change in the body that 879 00:32:37,340 --> 00:32:35,220 makes it much I guess it produces the 880 00:32:39,110 --> 00:32:37,350 wrinkles you know you see a smoker with 881 00:32:40,460 --> 00:32:39,120 the facial wrinkles I'm sure there's 882 00:32:42,890 --> 00:32:40,470 something the elastic tissue of your 883 00:32:44,510 --> 00:32:42,900 skin so you look older as well as that 884 00:32:46,460 --> 00:32:44,520 it does cause your blood vessels for 885 00:32:48,770 --> 00:32:46,470 whatever reason to shrink down and close 886 00:32:50,390 --> 00:32:48,780 down a bit which is why smokers have 887 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:50,400 problems with their hearts and so forth 888 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:52,410 like that but it also means with a lot 889 00:32:56,780 --> 00:32:53,970 of the surgery we do when we're doing 890 00:32:58,520 --> 00:32:56,790 the lifting tissue and we're pulling it 891 00:32:59,690 --> 00:32:58,530 tight and and doing the sort of things 892 00:33:01,550 --> 00:32:59,700 that you're not supposed to do with 893 00:33:03,230 --> 00:33:01,560 surgery if you want to win to heal you 894 00:33:05,450 --> 00:33:03,240 don't undercut it and I lift it off the 895 00:33:06,530 --> 00:33:05,460 the base and you don't pull it tight but 896 00:33:08,810 --> 00:33:06,540 I mean if you don't do that you don't 897 00:33:11,300 --> 00:33:08,820 get the lifts in lots of different parts 898 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:11,310 of the body so that the judgment comes 899 00:33:15,500 --> 00:33:13,770 in in working out just how much to lift 900 00:33:17,990 --> 00:33:15,510 and have time to pull it to get the 901 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:18,000 result but not go too far and cause 902 00:33:21,740 --> 00:33:19,650 trouble and then if the patient of 903 00:33:23,030 --> 00:33:21,750 course is a smoker then all those little 904 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:23,040 blood vessels that are struggling to 905 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:25,650 survive in your operation shut down and 906 00:33:29,570 --> 00:33:27,450 you can get some major problems with 907 00:33:30,830 --> 00:33:29,580 wound healing and that's something I 908 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:30,840 spell out the people I don't kill him 909 00:33:36,070 --> 00:33:33,810 about it clearly it's up to them if they 910 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:36,080 stop or not if they're really Matt's 911 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:38,850 heavy smokers and bad candidates I'll 912 00:33:43,070 --> 00:33:41,370 refuse to operate but you know basically 913 00:33:45,170 --> 00:33:43,080 as long as they fully understand what 914 00:33:46,820 --> 00:33:45,180 they're letting themselves in for and I 915 00:33:48,980 --> 00:33:46,830 might modify the operation a little bit 916 00:33:51,530 --> 00:33:48,990 because they're a smoker if I feel it's 917 00:33:53,210 --> 00:33:51,540 still appropriate to operate perhaps not 918 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:53,220 taken quite so close to the edge of 919 00:33:57,710 --> 00:33:55,890 wound healing problems and in your talk 920 00:33:59,270 --> 00:33:57,720 today what do you find is the area where 921 00:34:01,280 --> 00:33:59,280 things are getting pretty wish and 922 00:34:03,470 --> 00:34:01,290 shonky in the cosmetic field think 923 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:03,480 advertising up soon or fashion doctor 924 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:05,090 with an old-fashioned doctor father who 925 00:34:10,370 --> 00:34:08,610 felt as I still do that it's not 926 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:10,380 appropriate for doctors to advertise 927 00:34:14,690 --> 00:34:13,530 like use for car salesman so I think the 928 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:14,700 sort of money that's spent on 929 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:17,010 advertising into the cosmetic surgery 930 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:20,010 feel completely often misleading it's 931 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:21,690 quite inappropriate for what it should 932 00:34:25,190 --> 00:34:23,490 be an ethical profession you know we're 933 00:34:27,050 --> 00:34:25,200 not selling used cars we're selling 934 00:34:30,169 --> 00:34:27,060 potentially serious surgery were 935 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:30,179 potentially valuable lifestyle changes 936 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:31,770 which if they go wrong could devastate 937 00:34:36,830 --> 00:34:34,290 the patient so I don't think you ought 938 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:36,840 to somehow or other condo patients into 939 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:38,130 thinking it's easier than it really is 940 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:40,890 now which shows like the Kardashians and 941 00:34:44,330 --> 00:34:42,570 all those glamour magazine's that a 942 00:34:47,810 --> 00:34:44,340 Photoshop must be sending you a lot of 943 00:34:50,350 --> 00:34:47,820 work well well I've got these about 944 00:34:54,139 --> 00:34:50,360 Photoshop it's not supposed to happen 945 00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:54,149 Photoshop yeah in the magazines yes it's 946 00:34:59,050 --> 00:34:56,850 not strictly legal and it's certainly 947 00:35:01,550 --> 00:34:59,060 unethical to use Photoshop on your 948 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:01,560 before-and-afters if you do that sort of 949 00:35:05,570 --> 00:35:03,930 advertising but it does tend to put a 950 00:35:07,610 --> 00:35:05,580 gloss on this sort of surgery that I 951 00:35:09,290 --> 00:35:07,620 think is inappropriate and I'm sorry 952 00:35:11,990 --> 00:35:09,300 about that because this is real medicine 953 00:35:13,820 --> 00:35:12,000 it's real surgery it's got real risks it 954 00:35:16,100 --> 00:35:13,830 can do enormous good but if it goes 955 00:35:18,170 --> 00:35:16,110 wrong it can do a lot of damage and what 956 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:18,180 is the growth area in cosmetic surgery 957 00:35:21,650 --> 00:35:19,650 at the moment I think all cosmetic 958 00:35:24,610 --> 00:35:21,660 surgery particularly the minimally 959 00:35:28,100 --> 00:35:24,620 invasive things like Botox like fillers 960 00:35:29,930 --> 00:35:28,110 like the latest thing that's being 961 00:35:32,210 --> 00:35:29,940 pushed a lot is the use of a lot of 962 00:35:34,010 --> 00:35:32,220 threads in particularly in the face and 963 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:34,020 even in the breasts where you put these 964 00:35:38,690 --> 00:35:36,090 little surgical threads through that 965 00:35:40,370 --> 00:35:38,700 lift the face up or lift the breast up I 966 00:35:41,720 --> 00:35:40,380 think it's totally inappropriate in the 967 00:35:42,540 --> 00:35:41,730 breasts and I just don't think it works 968 00:35:44,790 --> 00:35:42,550 too well in the 969 00:35:46,410 --> 00:35:44,800 and they do have complications but it 970 00:35:48,390 --> 00:35:46,420 looks easy because you do it with local 971 00:35:49,470 --> 00:35:48,400 anesthetic you put a needle through you 972 00:35:51,060 --> 00:35:49,480 pull a thread through you pull the 973 00:35:53,100 --> 00:35:51,070 needle out again and you leave the 974 00:35:55,950 --> 00:35:53,110 thread there hoping that the face stays 975 00:35:58,290 --> 00:35:55,960 up and sometimes people will put in ten 976 00:36:00,210 --> 00:35:58,300 to fifteen threads in a fence and I 977 00:36:01,770 --> 00:36:00,220 think as a general rule these these 978 00:36:04,890 --> 00:36:01,780 threads connect a little bit like cheese 979 00:36:06,420 --> 00:36:04,900 wires because with persisting gravity 980 00:36:07,740 --> 00:36:06,430 they can tend to cut through the tissues 981 00:36:09,420 --> 00:36:07,750 and I don't think he can guarantee that 982 00:36:11,340 --> 00:36:09,430 things are going to stay up where you 983 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:11,350 put them even assuming that you don't 984 00:36:15,150 --> 00:36:13,690 get the sort of potential complications 985 00:36:17,940 --> 00:36:15,160 that you get with foreign material put 986 00:36:19,620 --> 00:36:17,950 under the skin nor do I think it's going 987 00:36:21,900 --> 00:36:19,630 to last a long time even if these are 988 00:36:24,180 --> 00:36:21,910 dissolving stitches that theoretically 989 00:36:25,860 --> 00:36:24,190 leave little threads of fibrous tissue 990 00:36:27,810 --> 00:36:25,870 where they used to be that somehow hits 991 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:27,820 your face up and don't just don't think 992 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:29,290 it works like that but I'm not in a 993 00:36:32,730 --> 00:36:31,090 threat so perhaps i'm biased against 994 00:36:36,900 --> 00:36:32,740 them but it's an idea that's been around 995 00:36:38,730 --> 00:36:36,910 for a couple of decades almost and the 996 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:38,740 the answer seems to be to put in more 997 00:36:42,990 --> 00:36:40,690 and more threads that some people are 998 00:36:45,060 --> 00:36:43,000 doing because it seems easier supposedly 999 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:45,070 not a proper operation you do it under 1000 00:36:50,310 --> 00:36:47,850 local patient walks in and walks out and 1001 00:36:52,110 --> 00:36:50,320 you know maybe they get an early good 1002 00:36:54,180 --> 00:36:52,120 result maybe they have problems maybe it 1003 00:36:55,530 --> 00:36:54,190 just doesn't last and of course if a 1004 00:36:57,420 --> 00:36:55,540 thread on one side of your face breaks 1005 00:37:00,480 --> 00:36:57,430 but not the other then you've got a kind 1006 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:00,490 of a lopsided look not a good look now 1007 00:37:04,530 --> 00:37:02,650 as a cosmetic plastic surgeon 1008 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:04,540 professional is there someone in the 1009 00:37:08,130 --> 00:37:06,130 media someone that's had some work done 1010 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:08,140 you go wow that person got a good job 1011 00:37:11,650 --> 00:37:10,130 got a good job done 1012 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:11,660 you know well I see a lot of people they 1013 00:37:15,999 --> 00:37:13,490 look pretty good for their age and good 1014 00:37:17,980 --> 00:37:16,009 luck to them if it all goes well so you 1015 00:37:19,450 --> 00:37:17,990 know that's fair enough i'm not who is 1016 00:37:21,670 --> 00:37:19,460 supposed to child for good plastic 1017 00:37:26,230 --> 00:37:21,680 surgery in your book I can't give you 1018 00:37:27,549 --> 00:37:26,240 names like that well I i think i'll just 1019 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:27,559 have to end the interview here i think 1020 00:37:45,609 --> 00:37:30,890 the the complementary medicine people 1021 00:37:50,720 --> 00:37:48,920 have you heard about QED the exciting 1022 00:37:54,079 --> 00:37:50,730 skeptical conference temptin 11 4 March 1023 00:37:56,359 --> 00:37:54,089 2012 quite exciting days you're probably 1024 00:37:58,549 --> 00:37:56,369 wondering why should i go to QED while 1025 00:38:00,349 --> 00:37:58,559 the existential dilemma will have the 1026 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:00,359 investigator and legend joe nickell 1027 00:38:04,130 --> 00:38:02,010 quite extraordinary detective 1028 00:38:06,740 --> 00:38:04,140 alternative medicine expert Ed's orders 1029 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:06,750 quacks in Deward difficulties monsters 1030 00:38:10,750 --> 00:38:08,490 werewolves and lucid dreaming from 1031 00:38:13,730 --> 00:38:10,760 Deborah high working eerie demons 1032 00:38:16,460 --> 00:38:13,740 Massimo polidoro head of the Italian 1033 00:38:18,109 --> 00:38:16,470 skeptic questo agrees your Dettori tape 1034 00:38:21,109 --> 00:38:18,119 it or an eviction conspiracy theories 1035 00:38:23,510 --> 00:38:21,119 ytb doubles secular campaign Miriam 1036 00:38:24,980 --> 00:38:23,520 namazi well equality detractors sara 1037 00:38:26,660 --> 00:38:24,990 angeles will shows how to play the 1038 00:38:29,750 --> 00:38:26,670 Federman with robots withering 1039 00:38:32,030 --> 00:38:29,760 electronic devices ufologist Ian Ridpath 1040 00:38:34,010 --> 00:38:32,040 with extraterrestrial details Professor 1041 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:34,020 Steve Jones and why creationism is not 1042 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:36,210 quiet and evolution deniers podcaster 1043 00:38:40,220 --> 00:38:37,530 and spoon bender Richard Saunders 1044 00:38:42,290 --> 00:38:40,230 questions ESP demonstrations for a filia 1045 00:38:44,299 --> 00:38:42,300 Benson Queen existentialist debater and 1046 00:38:46,549 --> 00:38:44,309 we'll have comedy from Robin Ince and 1047 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:46,559 guest quality into tim and definitely 1048 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:48,450 tickets her 89 pounds in there going 1049 00:38:54,620 --> 00:38:51,210 fast so hurry q everybody directly would 1050 00:38:58,670 --> 00:38:54,630 you cut that out you can get your ticket 1051 00:39:00,740 --> 00:38:58,680 from QED calm dot org court events dorm 1052 00:39:02,059 --> 00:39:00,750 in marsh seriously if you don't stop 1053 00:39:04,730 --> 00:39:02,069 bang enough to hurt quickly end 1054 00:39:14,670 --> 00:39:04,740 discussion comes QED not just question 1055 00:39:18,940 --> 00:39:17,290 we just here at skeptics at the pub and 1056 00:39:20,140 --> 00:39:18,950 I'm with someone that I haven't seen 1057 00:39:22,030 --> 00:39:20,150 since we had probably the most 1058 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:22,040 successful skeptics at the pub ever 1059 00:39:26,950 --> 00:39:24,170 which was just before tam last year who 1060 00:39:28,930 --> 00:39:26,960 we got here Shane Harvey wasn't that a 1061 00:39:31,060 --> 00:39:28,940 great night we had we had all the 1062 00:39:32,650 --> 00:39:31,070 skeptics guide the universe people I 1063 00:39:34,060 --> 00:39:32,660 think George rad was there everyone was 1064 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:34,070 it was a wild night wasn't it I was 1065 00:39:38,380 --> 00:39:36,410 fantastic one of the best ever yeah I 1066 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:38,390 know skip picked up reputation for 1067 00:39:43,170 --> 00:39:39,770 having bit of a drink sometimes but that 1068 00:39:45,670 --> 00:39:43,180 night everybody cut loose yeah they did 1069 00:39:47,020 --> 00:39:45,680 just a little but I'm talking to you 1070 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:47,030 tonight because it skeptics at the pub 1071 00:39:50,590 --> 00:39:48,290 Richard Saunders can have a chat about 1072 00:39:52,780 --> 00:39:50,600 being one of the judges on the one which 1073 00:39:53,830 --> 00:39:52,790 I imagine is competitive a lot of 1074 00:39:55,330 --> 00:39:53,840 skeptics really they wouldn't have had 1075 00:39:57,370 --> 00:39:55,340 time for that but Richard was out there 1076 00:39:59,380 --> 00:39:57,380 doing the stuff but you actually went to 1077 00:40:00,940 --> 00:39:59,390 one of the tapings of the winery thank 1078 00:40:03,130 --> 00:40:00,950 you have any way to other tapings you 1079 00:40:05,110 --> 00:40:03,140 had to the tapings of the one so you saw 1080 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:05,120 all the stuff that they chucked away and 1081 00:40:11,230 --> 00:40:08,450 what did you see go to wear only watch 1082 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:11,240 one of the episodes on television so not 1083 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:13,610 sure how the others went but was cut up 1084 00:40:19,930 --> 00:40:16,970 to pieces really so out of what four or 1085 00:40:22,510 --> 00:40:19,940 five hours of taping then I cut in 40 1086 00:40:23,620 --> 00:40:22,520 minutes it's a lot of cutting but you 1087 00:40:25,570 --> 00:40:23,630 were sitting out in the audience where 1088 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:25,580 Richard wasn't he could see them you can 1089 00:40:28,300 --> 00:40:27,050 either people whispering and conspiring 1090 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:28,310 to each other so what was the reaction 1091 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:30,530 of the general audience around you to 1092 00:40:34,170 --> 00:40:32,570 what these the psychics are doing the 1093 00:40:37,720 --> 00:40:34,180 majority of people surrounding me were 1094 00:40:39,730 --> 00:40:37,730 hundreds and believers and didn't really 1095 00:40:42,490 --> 00:40:39,740 like a lot of the comments that Richard 1096 00:40:46,170 --> 00:40:42,500 was saying but I got the other ladies 1097 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:46,180 name the white witch Stacey DeMarco yeah 1098 00:40:51,490 --> 00:40:49,010 just nodding along and in agreements and 1099 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:51,500 confirming all their beliefs I guess I'm 1100 00:40:54,310 --> 00:40:53,330 reassuring themselves so you're saying 1101 00:40:56,500 --> 00:40:54,320 that they probably wanted to burn 1102 00:40:57,940 --> 00:40:56,510 Richard at the stake I'm sure if they 1103 00:41:00,130 --> 00:40:57,950 had an opportunity some of them might 1104 00:41:02,890 --> 00:41:00,140 have taken that but the people sitting 1105 00:41:04,510 --> 00:41:02,900 directly next to me were miles maybe I 1106 00:41:06,150 --> 00:41:04,520 was fortunate Sydney to people that were 1107 00:41:07,710 --> 00:41:06,160 skeptics 1108 00:41:08,850 --> 00:41:07,720 and could pick out faults and they were 1109 00:41:10,100 --> 00:41:08,860 like oh yeah but that could have been 1110 00:41:12,630 --> 00:41:10,110 anything and a little bit more 1111 00:41:14,460 --> 00:41:12,640 thoughtful in their process so do you 1112 00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:14,470 think the people were undergoing a 1113 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:15,970 process of what some people would call 1114 00:41:20,340 --> 00:41:18,490 confirmation bias hundred percent I 1115 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:20,350 think that's what we all do in to some 1116 00:41:23,430 --> 00:41:21,850 respect since hard to turn that off it 1117 00:41:25,650 --> 00:41:23,440 was anybody did anyone around you get 1118 00:41:27,150 --> 00:41:25,660 cold read by the psychics I know 1119 00:41:29,310 --> 00:41:27,160 everybody was on the complete opposite 1120 00:41:31,050 --> 00:41:29,320 side of a room so maybe that was 1121 00:41:33,810 --> 00:41:31,060 fortunate were you hoping that they were 1122 00:41:35,670 --> 00:41:33,820 going to hit on you partly just to see 1123 00:41:37,050 --> 00:41:35,680 what you know what they come up with and 1124 00:41:38,550 --> 00:41:37,060 what their reactions would be now 1125 00:41:40,290 --> 00:41:38,560 obviously it's been a bit of a divisive 1126 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:40,300 show in the skeptical moving because 1127 00:41:43,230 --> 00:41:41,770 some people are forward and against it 1128 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:43,240 that sort thing and what look you do you 1129 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:45,490 think it is actually a useful thing to 1130 00:41:48,720 --> 00:41:47,050 get people to thinking skeptically or 1131 00:41:52,710 --> 00:41:48,730 you think the show is so biased towards 1132 00:41:56,300 --> 00:41:52,720 there being a dominant like that I think 1133 00:41:59,130 --> 00:41:56,310 it was definitely geared towards people 1134 00:42:01,560 --> 00:41:59,140 believing more in some kind of 1135 00:42:03,270 --> 00:42:01,570 supernatural power but I guess that's 1136 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:03,280 the whole nature of the show anyway was 1137 00:42:08,370 --> 00:42:05,890 to create Australia's top psychic so 1138 00:42:10,020 --> 00:42:08,380 they can't really go are we're going to 1139 00:42:11,790 --> 00:42:10,030 discredit you because that would be 1140 00:42:13,500 --> 00:42:11,800 defeating the purpose of the whole 1141 00:42:14,670 --> 00:42:13,510 entertainment i guess so they probably 1142 00:42:15,930 --> 00:42:14,680 would have gone and made anyway so i 1143 00:42:17,130 --> 00:42:15,940 guess it was you good that they had 1144 00:42:20,580 --> 00:42:17,140 someone might Richard at least saying 1145 00:42:22,770 --> 00:42:20,590 something yeah and I think he maybe had 1146 00:42:24,750 --> 00:42:22,780 to tone his his opinions down a little 1147 00:42:28,170 --> 00:42:24,760 bit to conform to what the show was he 1148 00:42:29,670 --> 00:42:28,180 couldn't completely go out and on there 1149 00:42:30,870 --> 00:42:29,680 look it's a little bit like when I'm 1150 00:42:33,420 --> 00:42:30,880 doing a radio show and there's two 1151 00:42:34,860 --> 00:42:33,430 people with opposite opinions if they go 1152 00:42:37,260 --> 00:42:34,870 really hard at each other what you get 1153 00:42:38,910 --> 00:42:37,270 is a screaming match and it may be 1154 00:42:40,830 --> 00:42:38,920 interesting radio for some but it just 1155 00:42:42,720 --> 00:42:40,840 gets nowhere yeah and it actually turns 1156 00:42:44,010 --> 00:42:42,730 people away I think and that's the 1157 00:42:45,900 --> 00:42:44,020 opposite of what you want to do so I 1158 00:42:48,240 --> 00:42:45,910 think just maybe gentle encouragement 1159 00:42:50,410 --> 00:42:48,250 every now and again it's probably more 1160 00:42:55,569 --> 00:42:50,420 positive than negative 1161 00:42:57,339 --> 00:42:55,579 thank you and also I'm just talking to 1162 00:43:00,069 --> 00:42:57,349 Steve who see would taste the wonderdog 1163 00:43:01,780 --> 00:43:00,079 Steve how are you I'm not too bad no 1164 00:43:04,270 --> 00:43:01,790 it's not a bad venue here for our script 1165 00:43:06,670 --> 00:43:04,280 because it's not too bad second time 1166 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:06,680 I've been here now I did you did you get 1167 00:43:10,839 --> 00:43:08,210 to catch up with any of the one or not 1168 00:43:13,510 --> 00:43:10,849 to actually I saw i think i saw all but 1169 00:43:15,730 --> 00:43:13,520 one episode and what did you make of it 1170 00:43:19,180 --> 00:43:15,740 because it could be a divisive show a 1171 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:19,190 monk skeptics yeah I I think painful was 1172 00:43:27,220 --> 00:43:21,410 the word I used to describe at most of 1173 00:43:30,130 --> 00:43:27,230 the time I really got a bit annoyed with 1174 00:43:32,770 --> 00:43:30,140 how they only gave the judges sound 1175 00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:32,780 bites they I really would have liked 1176 00:43:37,510 --> 00:43:35,930 some more feedback mm and how do you 1177 00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:37,520 think we should perform that in such a 1178 00:43:43,720 --> 00:43:40,130 situation probably about as well as 1179 00:43:47,289 --> 00:43:43,730 could be expected and it was amazing how 1180 00:43:48,910 --> 00:43:47,299 they look I wouldn't mind it if that had 1181 00:43:50,799 --> 00:43:48,920 a few more clear hits but it was almost 1182 00:43:53,799 --> 00:43:50,809 like they had to take the one who was 1183 00:43:56,710 --> 00:43:53,809 the least wrong I it was it it's the 1184 00:43:59,829 --> 00:43:56,720 Australia's at least mediocre psychic 1185 00:44:00,849 --> 00:43:59,839 it's terrible hmm in fact you think you 1186 00:44:03,190 --> 00:44:00,859 could have done better at some of the 1187 00:44:05,740 --> 00:44:03,200 sections um I reckon I would have got 1188 00:44:08,049 --> 00:44:05,750 done Bradman's cricket bat yes but when 1189 00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:08,059 they felt it was a cricket bat I if 1190 00:44:11,140 --> 00:44:09,530 you'd felt it was a bit old you could 1191 00:44:14,410 --> 00:44:11,150 have guessed it as maybe that his good 1192 00:44:15,940 --> 00:44:14,420 new well I think he did there was like 1193 00:44:18,039 --> 00:44:15,950 two or three people you could have 1194 00:44:20,900 --> 00:44:18,049 guessed who you would have had a fair 1195 00:44:23,510 --> 00:44:20,910 chance of being right 1196 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:23,520 it had a case ago like as a shield 1197 00:44:26,660 --> 00:44:25,290 Labrador a golden retriever labrador I 1198 00:44:29,780 --> 00:44:26,670 will they're the most psychic of all 1199 00:44:31,310 --> 00:44:29,790 dogs aren't they she was psychic enough 1200 00:44:35,510 --> 00:44:31,320 to know that it was going to be terrible 1201 00:44:37,310 --> 00:44:35,520 and didn't watch it all da we did very 1202 00:44:38,750 --> 00:44:37,320 well I'm just talking to two people who 1203 00:44:39,890 --> 00:44:38,760 were really big on getting some of the 1204 00:44:41,240 --> 00:44:39,900 books that have been given away what 1205 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:41,250 were the great books you manage to now 1206 00:44:46,370 --> 00:44:44,010 be the owners of some fantastic stuff 1207 00:44:48,590 --> 00:44:46,380 about new physics and spirituality and 1208 00:44:51,170 --> 00:44:48,600 what was one you Akane on it was at 1209 00:44:53,030 --> 00:44:51,180 Edward case are you sleeping prophet yes 1210 00:44:54,740 --> 00:44:53,040 exactly it was about reincarnation and 1211 00:44:56,300 --> 00:44:54,750 the other book word I think he might be 1212 00:44:58,190 --> 00:44:56,310 the guy who predicted every Pope till 1213 00:45:00,890 --> 00:44:58,200 the end of time yeah he did a good job 1214 00:45:02,810 --> 00:45:00,900 very good ok so i guess it's gonna be a 1215 00:45:04,550 --> 00:45:02,820 long night reading a lot tonight very 1216 00:45:05,990 --> 00:45:04,560 long ya know you aren't queuing up to 1217 00:45:07,370 --> 00:45:06,000 subscribe to the skeptic magazine are 1218 00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:07,380 you well look when you just we had not 1219 00:45:10,790 --> 00:45:08,490 need a skepticism but we're certainly 1220 00:45:12,530 --> 00:45:10,800 new to societal skepticism and we 1221 00:45:13,430 --> 00:45:12,540 absolutely loved it so yeah i think i 1222 00:45:15,860 --> 00:45:13,440 think i'm going to get involved with 1223 00:45:17,300 --> 00:45:15,870 that magazine too cuz I look and there's 1224 00:45:19,430 --> 00:45:17,310 more books for that come from he's got 1225 00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:19,440 how many crates of those book to god I'm 1226 00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:20,970 cutting it down i did have a tie never 1227 00:45:23,900 --> 00:45:22,410 have several hundred books and one of 1228 00:45:25,970 --> 00:45:23,910 those crates was just erich von daniken 1229 00:45:27,890 --> 00:45:25,980 books on its own absolutely a lot of 1230 00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:27,900 everyone will enjoy your books thanks 1231 00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:31,050 man look I got some more people here 1232 00:45:34,580 --> 00:45:32,730 that actually watched the one so what 1233 00:45:36,830 --> 00:45:34,590 did you make the show oh I thought it 1234 00:45:38,450 --> 00:45:36,840 was beautiful yeah so do you think was a 1235 00:45:40,070 --> 00:45:38,460 good or a bad thing for skepticism for 1236 00:45:42,830 --> 00:45:40,080 Richard Liana are definitely a good 1237 00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:42,840 thing mmm did you think there was anyone 1238 00:45:49,730 --> 00:45:44,490 that was even a little bit believable 1239 00:45:51,530 --> 00:45:49,740 they had some otherworldly power no so 1240 00:45:53,540 --> 00:45:51,540 so did the show make you laugh or make 1241 00:45:55,460 --> 00:45:53,550 you angry oh I thought it was a refund 1242 00:45:58,100 --> 00:45:55,470 and how did you go with the whole thing 1243 00:45:59,690 --> 00:45:58,110 I love it I think Richard was really 1244 00:46:01,040 --> 00:45:59,700 funny yeah so do you think it was a good 1245 00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:01,050 thing for him to go on it I definitely 1246 00:46:04,180 --> 00:46:02,570 definitely yeah 1247 00:46:07,860 --> 00:46:04,190 and was there even a moment where you 1248 00:46:14,020 --> 00:46:12,430 yeah sure a little bit of deceiving 1249 00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:14,030 maybe you sound like you might be 1250 00:46:20,410 --> 00:46:15,650 skeptical at times it seemed like it was 1251 00:46:23,530 --> 00:46:20,420 the person who was the least wrong all 1252 00:46:27,250 --> 00:46:23,540 the West lucky yeah yeah it was always 1253 00:46:30,070 --> 00:46:27,260 about about luck and well people just 1254 00:46:32,410 --> 00:46:30,080 you know you can see how the experiment 1255 00:46:34,180 --> 00:46:32,420 was set up and I always thought the 1256 00:46:37,020 --> 00:46:34,190 experiment could have been a bit more 1257 00:46:39,580 --> 00:46:37,030 thorough so for example with the 1258 00:46:41,260 --> 00:46:39,590 helicopters they were going out all in 1259 00:46:42,850 --> 00:46:41,270 them in the same direction where I 1260 00:46:44,950 --> 00:46:42,860 thought it would have been more 1261 00:46:47,050 --> 00:46:44,960 interesting to actually put them in the 1262 00:46:49,030 --> 00:46:47,060 field in the center of the field but you 1263 00:46:51,100 --> 00:46:49,040 know they all started walking off 1264 00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:51,110 towards the helicopter so I thought this 1265 00:46:53,980 --> 00:46:52,610 could have been better do you think that 1266 00:46:55,300 --> 00:46:53,990 ever be able to make a really balanced 1267 00:46:56,710 --> 00:46:55,310 show about this because they were trying 1268 00:46:58,090 --> 00:46:56,720 to make an entertaining show up they'll 1269 00:46:59,470 --> 00:46:58,100 try to make it time to think that might 1270 00:47:02,560 --> 00:46:59,480 have taken away from the entertainment 1271 00:47:04,180 --> 00:47:02,570 value yeah well it was more fun to see 1272 00:47:07,210 --> 00:47:04,190 them having tantrums when it went wrong 1273 00:47:08,590 --> 00:47:07,220 then so I think overall it was a good 1274 00:47:12,010 --> 00:47:08,600 thing for skepticism virtually to be 1275 00:47:14,350 --> 00:47:12,020 part of it oh yeah definitely look 1276 00:47:17,500 --> 00:47:14,360 someone who's a member of the skeptics 1277 00:47:20,020 --> 00:47:17,510 why did you make of the one well it was 1278 00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:20,030 a little bit hard to a little bit hard 1279 00:47:25,630 --> 00:47:23,570 to watch our unsub say it didn't make a 1280 00:47:28,270 --> 00:47:25,640 lot of sense I don't think I'm a good 1281 00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:28,280 television to be quite honest so think 1282 00:47:31,060 --> 00:47:29,690 it was good or bad for the skeptical 1283 00:47:32,860 --> 00:47:31,070 movement or a neutral thing to be doing 1284 00:47:34,930 --> 00:47:32,870 I think was only positive for the 1285 00:47:39,700 --> 00:47:34,940 skeptical movement I think it displayed 1286 00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:39,710 pretty well to to the converted that you 1287 00:47:44,020 --> 00:47:41,690 know that there are big questions around 1288 00:47:45,460 --> 00:47:44,030 all these sorts of Osiris's now at 1289 00:47:47,290 --> 00:47:45,470 skeptics to the pub tonight there was 1290 00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:47,300 some book giveaways now our friends over 1291 00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:48,410 there they've got mostly really good 1292 00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:49,970 ones but what did you put your hand up 1293 00:47:55,930 --> 00:47:51,770 and go racing down the aisle for young 1294 00:47:57,580 --> 00:47:55,940 boy I took the nastradamus book because 1295 00:48:00,310 --> 00:47:57,590 I've seen you at the bar quoting 1296 00:48:01,510 --> 00:48:00,320 quatrains in the original French I'm 1297 00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:01,520 going to run them through google 1298 00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:03,010 translate and see what they come up with 1299 00:48:07,270 --> 00:48:06,050 so so is that like a bathroom book or 1300 00:48:08,980 --> 00:48:07,280 wonder have a read before you go to bed 1301 00:48:11,470 --> 00:48:08,990 for a bit of light reading where is it 1302 00:48:14,050 --> 00:48:11,480 sit on your mantelpiece it's just 1303 00:48:17,230 --> 00:48:14,060 because I quite often say call me 1304 00:48:18,670 --> 00:48:17,240 Nostradamus and I'd like to have just a 1305 00:48:20,830 --> 00:48:18,680 little bit of something to back that up 1306 00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:20,840 with you I'm to open up and go when fire 1307 00:48:25,070 --> 00:48:22,810 burns in my pants and stuff like that 1308 00:48:27,270 --> 00:48:25,080 exactly 1309 00:48:29,580 --> 00:48:27,280 well I'm just here with some recent 1310 00:48:31,020 --> 00:48:29,590 immigrants so how are you I'm good thank 1311 00:48:32,490 --> 00:48:31,030 you okay now how did you come into the 1312 00:48:34,020 --> 00:48:32,500 country did you get a balloon was it 1313 00:48:35,490 --> 00:48:34,030 like 80 days in a balloon from Europe 1314 00:48:37,110 --> 00:48:35,500 how'd you get here and then we actually 1315 00:48:39,990 --> 00:48:37,120 got a small raft over from Papua New 1316 00:48:41,550 --> 00:48:40,000 Guinea Wow let's get improving 1317 00:48:42,810 --> 00:48:41,560 incredibly popular and you found 1318 00:48:44,550 --> 00:48:42,820 yourself at skeptics in the pub would 1319 00:48:46,410 --> 00:48:44,560 you make of our you know down under 1320 00:48:48,630 --> 00:48:46,420 experience yeah it's great it was a good 1321 00:48:50,130 --> 00:48:48,640 night very good fun now what do you 1322 00:48:51,390 --> 00:48:50,140 think about the one the show that 1323 00:48:53,190 --> 00:48:51,400 Richard was talking about they obviously 1324 00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:53,200 didn't get chance to see it well we 1325 00:48:58,170 --> 00:48:55,090 we've heard about actually through a 1326 00:49:00,360 --> 00:48:58,180 skeptic's guide to the universe so yeah 1327 00:49:03,060 --> 00:49:00,370 we've kind of not seen the show but had 1328 00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:03,070 enough about it and you're over here as 1329 00:49:07,230 --> 00:49:05,650 well yeah hi yeah what did you think of 1330 00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:07,240 the one do you think doing a show like 1331 00:49:10,620 --> 00:49:09,010 the one is a good idea but skepticism or 1332 00:49:12,750 --> 00:49:10,630 you think it just endorses what most 1333 00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:12,760 skeptics don't believe in it's a 1334 00:49:18,570 --> 00:49:15,370 difficult and just say it but I think if 1335 00:49:19,890 --> 00:49:18,580 it gets the the average person thinking 1336 00:49:22,170 --> 00:49:19,900 about these things and it's good in the 1337 00:49:23,220 --> 00:49:22,180 end yeah and what what do you think you 1338 00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:23,230 think it's something they should be 1339 00:49:30,540 --> 00:49:26,530 doing on our I'm not so sure I think 1340 00:49:33,150 --> 00:49:30,550 that there is a danger that you you give 1341 00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:33,160 people an idea that actually the 1342 00:49:37,260 --> 00:49:35,770 skepticism is not necessarily skips in 1343 00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:37,270 science and the scientific method is 1344 00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:40,330 something that can be easily shown in in 1345 00:49:45,390 --> 00:49:42,370 a kind of entertainment setting and I 1346 00:49:47,700 --> 00:49:45,400 think that it's science is something 1347 00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:47,710 that takes time and it takes years to go 1348 00:49:53,550 --> 00:49:50,410 through a meta-analysis and understand 1349 00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:53,560 exactly how it works I think you so you 1350 00:49:57,230 --> 00:49:55,210 kind of give people that do people a 1351 00:50:00,690 --> 00:49:57,240 disservice sometimes to have perhaps 1352 00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:00,700 show that within a kinda half an hour 1353 00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:03,850 show here's the solution to a problem I 1354 00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:05,770 think it's dangerous sometimes to do 1355 00:50:09,060 --> 00:50:07,570 that and you worried that perhaps it 1356 00:50:09,540 --> 00:50:09,070 gives credibility to something that 1357 00:50:12,570 --> 00:50:09,550 should 1358 00:50:14,700 --> 00:50:12,580 have it I not know I totally see that 1359 00:50:17,430 --> 00:50:14,710 the kind of the value of kind of showing 1360 00:50:20,700 --> 00:50:17,440 kind of an entertainment purpose in 1361 00:50:24,950 --> 00:50:20,710 getting the term skepticism out there I 1362 00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:24,960 think the danger is that people see that 1363 00:50:30,720 --> 00:50:27,610 science and scientific journalism can be 1364 00:50:33,720 --> 00:50:30,730 done in a scientist just cure cancer 1365 00:50:36,150 --> 00:50:33,730 rather than a particular type of cancer 1366 00:50:38,100 --> 00:50:36,160 has become slightly more curable because 1367 00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:38,110 of a tiny bit of evidence we've just 1368 00:50:42,540 --> 00:50:39,970 found and I think it doesn't make a 1369 00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:42,550 headline but science doesn't necessarily 1370 00:50:46,490 --> 00:50:44,410 have to make headlines all the time and 1371 00:50:48,690 --> 00:50:46,500 I think there's a danger that the 1372 00:50:51,450 --> 00:50:48,700 putting it in that setting can kind of 1373 00:50:53,430 --> 00:50:51,460 take away from that yeah well we all 1374 00:50:54,720 --> 00:50:53,440 know science can be fun but the message 1375 00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:54,730 they'll seem to get lost particular on 1376 00:50:57,570 --> 00:50:55,690 someone like me who doesn't like 1377 00:51:01,200 --> 00:50:57,580 studying is that science actually is 1378 00:51:03,210 --> 00:51:01,210 hard absolutely I I think that Annie and 1379 00:51:07,950 --> 00:51:03,220 hard and not necessarily always 1380 00:51:10,350 --> 00:51:07,960 interesting and I think we need to 1381 00:51:13,770 --> 00:51:10,360 explain to people that yes it is 1382 00:51:17,340 --> 00:51:13,780 difficult yes it is a long-term strategy 1383 00:51:19,890 --> 00:51:17,350 and to convince them that you can click 1384 00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:19,900 your fingers and here's the solution it 1385 00:51:24,750 --> 00:51:22,170 is all is possibly dangerous I mean I 1386 00:51:27,180 --> 00:51:24,760 said I totally understand the the 1387 00:51:29,010 --> 00:51:27,190 benefit of doing the PR exercise and 1388 00:51:31,830 --> 00:51:29,020 making sure that people know the 1389 00:51:35,070 --> 00:51:31,840 skepticism even exists but I do think 1390 00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:35,080 the science it needs to be explained to 1391 00:51:39,660 --> 00:51:36,970 people but it's a long term said she 1392 00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:39,670 rather than explaining to them his his 1393 00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:41,170 your answer and here's kind of the 1394 00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:44,530 x-files solution rather than actually a 1395 00:51:48,210 --> 00:51:46,810 bunch of guys in a lab not doing 1396 00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:48,220 anything particularly interesting for 1397 00:51:53,010 --> 00:51:50,770 six years end result is that actually 1398 00:51:54,060 --> 00:51:53,020 done something amazing do you think it's 1399 00:51:55,890 --> 00:51:54,070 probably cause people always want to 1400 00:51:58,170 --> 00:51:55,900 look for the magic bullet but everything 1401 00:52:00,660 --> 00:51:58,180 in almost every aspect of life 1402 00:52:03,180 --> 00:52:00,670 yes definitely yes everyone wants a 1403 00:52:06,660 --> 00:52:03,190 simple solution we're all him and that's 1404 00:52:07,950 --> 00:52:06,670 that's what we want but now at the end 1405 00:52:30,100 --> 00:52:07,960 of the day things more difficult than 1406 00:52:36,110 --> 00:52:32,720 thank you for listening to the skeptic 1407 00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:36,120 zone Thank You Maynard I tell you what 1408 00:52:40,910 --> 00:52:37,770 folks may not is one of the 1409 00:52:43,430 --> 00:52:40,920 hardest-working reporters and the money 1410 00:52:45,620 --> 00:52:43,440 he gets for my god the paychecks I have 1411 00:52:47,720 --> 00:52:45,630 to write well you know what I'm going to 1412 00:52:50,330 --> 00:52:47,730 say of course may not volunteers his 1413 00:52:52,340 --> 00:52:50,340 time which is why folks which is why 1414 00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:52,350 we're going to have some items up for 1415 00:52:58,640 --> 00:52:55,890 bid pretty soon on ebay and i'll be 1416 00:53:00,980 --> 00:52:58,650 putting that into next week's show that 1417 00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:00,990 information probably on my facebook and 1418 00:53:09,260 --> 00:53:05,010 twitter to twitter of courses at skeptic 1419 00:53:12,050 --> 00:53:09,270 zone we have our dear friend brian 1420 00:53:14,170 --> 00:53:12,060 dunning from skipped I com sent me some 1421 00:53:17,450 --> 00:53:14,180 books some of his books kept toyed three 1422 00:53:20,090 --> 00:53:17,460 pirates pyramids and papyrus with a 1423 00:53:21,650 --> 00:53:20,100 foreword by yours truly he signed it 1424 00:53:24,170 --> 00:53:21,660 I've signed it we've got some of those 1425 00:53:25,550 --> 00:53:24,180 books to auction we've got the poster as 1426 00:53:28,460 --> 00:53:25,560 I've mentioned before with lots of 1427 00:53:33,950 --> 00:53:28,470 skeptical autographs and we've got a 1428 00:53:37,450 --> 00:53:33,960 double DVD set of 40 classic tracks from 1429 00:53:40,270 --> 00:53:37,460 95 to 2000 what makes that special it's 1430 00:53:42,500 --> 00:53:40,280 maynards collection Maynard's classics 1431 00:53:46,310 --> 00:53:42,510 picture of maine out on the cover it's a 1432 00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:46,320 double DVD set with lots and lots us or 1433 00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:48,570 one of the disks is even purple maynards 1434 00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:51,330 classics 95 to 2000 that will be going 1435 00:53:55,550 --> 00:53:53,490 up for auction pretty soon on ebay and 1436 00:54:00,890 --> 00:53:55,560 that will be autographed by maynard 1437 00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:00,900 himself anyway i think that's enough for 1438 00:54:05,090 --> 00:54:02,610 this week's show thank you for listening 1439 00:54:07,210 --> 00:54:05,100 thank you again may not fulfilling in 1440 00:54:10,490 --> 00:54:07,220 the whole show with those fantastic and 1441 00:54:12,710 --> 00:54:10,500 interesting interviews but until next 1442 00:54:16,610 --> 00:54:12,720 week this is Richard Saunders signing 1443 00:54:18,710 --> 00:54:16,620 off from her oh oh you're not during the 1444 00:54:22,580 --> 00:54:18,720 show that the clouds have come over what 1445 00:54:30,310 --> 00:54:22,590 oh well Richard Saunders signing off 1446 00:54:37,700 --> 00:54:32,720 you've been listening to the skeptic 1447 00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:37,710 zone visit our website at www skeptic